Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab has been cutting vinyl from digital since a long, long time ago...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ben Adams, Jul 14, 2022.

  1. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Why bother with a gold cd at $20 when 25 years ago they retailed for $30? Probably not feasible financially. Adjusted for inflation they would probably be $50 today. I'll take the SACD for $30 and call it a friggen bargain in 2022.
     
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  2. I’m wondering if it means that my original reading of the interview was correct — that, when they take their gear on the road, they actually make both an analogue and a DSD256 copy, and master from whichever sounds the best to them? If so, there may be some discussion going on right now along the lines of "sure, you may think the DSD sounds better, but our customers won’t buy it if it’s 'digital', so we better master from the analogue copy anyway."
     
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  3. bruinuclafan

    bruinuclafan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I have never seen anyone use a priori twice in the same paragraph and now I can see why.
     
  4. bbanderic

    bbanderic Forum Resident

    I wouldn't pay too much attention to these MoFi defenders who keep going on and on and on about the sound quality, we all know it's about MoFi's lies why the AAA guys are bent out of shape. Let's not pretend like we don't know what the OMR banner stands for and what it's stood for all of MoFi's existence. These people are just trying to get a rise out of us when in reality they're just trying to justify themselves spending $125 for a DSD sourced recording. We all know that price point for a DSD sourced LP isn't sustainable, not when you have AP and many others putting out AAA for half the price. Who's laughing now? LOL
     
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  5. Plus, in our youth, there weren’t a lot of other options on which to use our allowance/part-time job disposable income. Movies in a format you could play at home were far off in the future, and video games were unheard-of. Records were pretty much it, and we bought a lot of them.

    I also keep thinking about how audiophilia, in its earliest form, was almost entirely focused on classical music, and the ability of "hi-fi" to reproduce the sound of acoustic instruments, of which a symphony orchestra was a prime example. That really changed as our generation grew up when, suddenly, it became all about getting the best-sounding versions of the records that provided the soundtrack to our youth. In other words, it became less about recreating a live concert as it did recreating our "golden days." Will this be the same twenty-five years from now - will people approaching middle age suddenly want to find the best-sounding versions of Taylor Swift or BTS songs (since the concept of an "album" appears to be approaching obsolescence)? Or will music have become so much commodified background noise that it will even have lost its nostalgic appeal? Maybe the youth of today, down the road, will satisfy their nostalgia by watching old YouTube videos instead of listening to music from that time?
     
  6. heartbroken_poet

    heartbroken_poet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    Thanks for your input and the information. I've just spoken from my own experience. There are lost of great sounding CDs in every decade. But the curve of the horrible ones has never been so high as of right now.
    I've enjoyed my share of awesome redbook mastering jobs. Many of the XR24CDs I wore out in the 80's come to mind.

    Please, point me to popular music CD's not compressed to death and with good mastering and I will get them ASAP.

    Meanwhile, I will pursue the best mastering I could get no matter the format.
    Some current SACDs and hires downloads fulfill that need, but for many of the genres and subgenres of music I like, my only option is vinyl mastering, digital or whatnot.
     
  7. jlykos

    jlykos Forum Resident

    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    If that’s the case (and I have no reason to question it, as DAT was the recording format of choice during those years), then the description on the MFSL page for the Clapton Unplugged is just as misleading as anything else they have been saying. They have “Mastered from the original master tapes” emblazoned across the header of the ad copy but are omitting key information from this simple statement. Are the master tapes in question analog or digital DAT tapes? A MFSL customer who is throwing down $125 may assume that the tapes are analog when all MFSL may be doing is just remastering a 16/48 DAT transfer (or even just ripping and remastering a commercially available CD). At that point, why not just buy the original CD from the used bin for $5 or whatever, as it sounded good in the first place and probably doesn’t need whatever white glove mastering treatment MFSL will apply. Its not like anybody needs a DSD transfer from a DAT and you are paying the entire premium just for the mastering service and pressing onto a vinyl formulation that will be inherently noisier than a CD.

    Of course, MFSL has their boilerplate ad copy further down the screen stating that they are doing a DSD 256 transfer of the “original master tapes.” I’m inclined to think that this is a misapplication of the boilerplate ad copy but after everything that is going on, one would think that MFSL would be going through their ad copy with a fine tooth comb because it’s what got them into this mess to begin with. If it’s accurate, then I would really want to see a picture of whatever Clapton Unplugged tapes they claim to be using for their DSD transfer.
     
  8. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Naugahide! :nauga:
     
  9. gabbleratchet7

    gabbleratchet7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I voted yes in the poll, but I have not to date purchased any MoFi one-steps. So I took the news as disappointing but not the betrayal some more invested have felt. As a child of the CD age (though a re-dedicated vinyl purchaser for the last 15 years or so), I do not have a knee-jerk aversion to digital in the mastering chain and if you are going to use it, 4x DSD seems to be the best choice for archiving analogue masters. But MoFi’s marketing methods have been at best misleading and, in the case of the customer service email circulated earlier, incorrect and untruthful. They’ll reap what they sowed.

    I have been an admirer of the various iterations of MoFi since I started buying music in 1987 as a teenager, but the premium pricing limited me to purchases of albums I loved rather than assembling a completist’s collection. In those 35 years this is the modest MoFi collection I have assembled (going by memory, so I might be missing a couple):

    Ultradisc CDs: Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall, Albert King’s Born Under A Bad Sign, Eric Clapton’s Slowhand, U2 The Unforgettable Fire
    Silver Line CDs: Chet Atkins In Hollywood/Alone, Procol Harum Live with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra
    SACDs: Cowboy Junkies Whites Off Earth Now and the Dire Straits discography
    LPs: Genesis A Trick of the Tail (used), the first three albums by The Band and Tears For Fears Seeds of Love (not an original master brand)
     
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  10. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I don't have to be convinced of that at all.

    All I have to point out is that MoFi was convinced that it was necessary to perpetuate the illusion that their product was all-analog in order to sell it like it it was the 25-year old Single Malt of LPs. And the desire for AAA-LPs doesn't even have to be rooted in the belief that digital is inferior to analog, it merely has to be rooted in the belief that an analog transfer of an analog source is more faithful to that source than a digital one. Some people just want the best reproduction of a recording in the style that it was first created.

    If you bought even a first pressing of a vintage LP, you have no guarantee that it was from the actual master tape, but as I've mentioned previously in the thread, the idea that one can now get an all-analog LP mastered directly from the master tape is a powerful sales draw, and MoFi and every other audiophile label knows that. It's why they charge so much for these pressings - they are promising something extra-special.

    Bottom line is, they misrepresented their product, creating the illusion that it was from an analog tape and produced using an all-analog mastering chain, and that was just simply a dishonest claim.

    It doesn't matter if you think a digital copy is as good, or better.

    It doesn't matter if you think that the AAA standard is incorrect and only ignorant and illogical people hold to it.

    The only thing that matters is, MoFi tried to capitalize on the desire of some people for LPs created from analog master tape with an all-analog process but they did not deliver what was promised. That in itself is a sufficient reason for criticism and for declining to buy any more product from that company. And to try to dismiss that reason and substitute other reasons instead of it, reasons that are more comfortable with your idea of what people are thinking and what motivates them, is indeed shameful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
  11. I’m sure of it as well, considering old Immanuel insisted on truth-telling at any cost, even when it may lead to the death of a friend.* And I agree — that e-mail crosses the line from merely finessing the facts to outright lying. However, that e-mail only came to light midway through this whole scandal. If it had been the inception point of this, I would have no argument with the justifiable anger. But the lynch-mob had already formed well before that; in fact, it began as soon as it was confirmed that DSD had been used in even a few of MoFi's releases.

    *By contrast, I'd counter that Socrates would no doubt reply that, if the MoFi engineers really thought DSD256 was more transparent than an analogue copy tape and that the resulting LPs were really the finest version one could make of that album, saying that they were all-analog to convince customers with a prejudice against digital would be quite permissible as a "noble lie." But I won’t continue that line of thought any further; although we've already seen some analogies between vinyl and girlfriends, I have no desire to extend this to the question of whether wives and children should be held in common…
     
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  12. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I don't know the answer to your question; you've captured the period when I've been alive. I see each of us as having difference experiences that overlap. I veered off of the "best sellers" on Chad's site- same old, in favor of stuff that appealed to me. I think that's true with a lot of people here- deep knowledge on particular bands or releases.
    The pop/rock v. acoustic instruments is a fair divide- I listen to a lot of small combo jazz that is pretty well done- mainly b/c the players are good, not b/c there was a lot of "production." As you know, that is in many ways better- simpler recording, capturing the performance occurring in real time (rather than overdubbed) with the sound of the room where it was done. That's audiophile in my book and you can hear it on a lot of records that did not have audiophile pretensions.
    The degree to which somebody is about sonic spectaculars v. the music is a hard one to address for several reasons. I'm loathe to make artistic judgements, though I'll acknowledge certain records aren't for me. At the same time, I recognize that as my ear/palate is more receptive, I can listen to things I probably would not have in the past. I don't listen to much current pop.
    Music is something that can cross all kinds of boundaries, including language, culture and gear-- many of the people who play don't really care about the "playback resolution" beyond a certain point- they get the gist of the composition and performance and given their own native talents, can take it from there. I had a Nashville cat playing Alice Cooper at my place in NY- go figure, right? (Dude was on 4 tracks of that Egypt Station record-- killer woodwinds and pedal steel).
     
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  13. You didn’t go to my college, where it wasn’t unheard of to have debates about the "είδος qua είδος" of something. :laugh:
     
  14. I agree, most (popular) music on CDs sounds horrible now…but that’s because of conscious mastering choices rather than technical limitations.
     
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  15. Anaan Ng

    Anaan Ng Interested Party

    As sort of a newcomer and someone whose ear probably couldn't tell you if pressed, I'm still disappointed they flat-out lied. I have so MoFi releases simply for value's sake, and they just took a massive hit. That's terrible, and I won't buy their records again. This was just plain old no-good malfeasance for many years.
     
  16. PDMBK

    PDMBK Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Just received a MFSL copy of Natalie Merchant - Tigerlily. Ordered during the brief restock a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately, the is not a source listed on the MOFI site. The blurb does say “Remastered from the original analog tapes”.

    Can anyone confirm that Tigerlily was recorded to tape? Thought it might be a digital recording in 1995. Also, any guess if MOFI added the DSD step to their remaster?
     
  17. DancingSea

    DancingSea Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maui, Hawaii
    In the interview they stated that they take the equipment on the road and make a DSD 256 copy because it inherently sounds better than an analog tape copy. That the analog tape copy introduces another thumb print.

    This whole mess isn't so much about MoFi using DSD if DSD sounds better. The mess is about them not telling anyone they were using DSD, and in fact being very misleading in their marketing about that.
     
  18. heartbroken_poet

    heartbroken_poet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    I got interested in the topic, I checked and found out the XRCD24 was introduced in the 90's, which on one hand corrects my memory inaccuracy, and at the same time reinforces how I remember masterings on the 90's CDs as my best experience with the format.

    Yes, I agree with your assessment, the current sound choices in popular music scare away a lot potential music lovers, especially the regular ones, many who don't even realize why the current music experience is not as enjoyable as before.

    The audio aficionados are already dead by noise, or deep down hidden in their bunker with their old recordings. (and some Mofi Step Ones) :p
     
  19. I’m highlighting that passage in your reply because I'm genuinely confused. When you say "more faithful," do you mean something other than "better-sounding?" Say, for the sake of argument, that it turned out that going to DSD256 produced a sonically-indistinguishable copy of the original analogue master, while an analogue copy tape introduced a slight but perceptible layer of additional noise. Would you consider it preferable to master from the analogue copy if the original master was unavailable, because the distortion (additional noise) it may have introduced would have been typical of an all-analogue process, and therefore "more faithful?" If not, what does it mean other than a conviction (by which I don’t rule out a conviction fully based on experience) that a digital step de facto makes it worse-sounding. I’m not playing games here; I'm sincerely trying to understand the nuances of your position.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
  20. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off


    But it isnt *all* about Mofi being dishonest.

    It is about many things.

    It is about digital coming very very close to matching analogue. It is about purists that want AAA for whatever reasons. And others that accept that these Mofis sounded great and certainly great enough that it doesnt matter whether they are aaa.

    Its also a positive thing to some.

    If indeed digital can sound this good, look at the doors it could open. And many more angles one can see.

    This thread isnt delegated to "All analogue folk come here and gripe about lieing Mofi".

    It is about the later and many sub topics.


    "These people are just trying to get a rise out of us when in reality they're just trying to justify themselves spending $125 for a DSD sourced recording. "

    These people?

    Ok.

    Some people do seem to like to poke the bear. But really its bear poking from both sides. I mean look at the quote from you.

    My justification for spending money on any LP is:

    "Do I like the music?"

    and

    "What is the best sounding version?"

    Some Mofi's cover that and some do not.

    That has zero to do with whether they are analogue or digital.

    Who is laughing now about what?

    If Mofi survives they will adapt. And it will be digital for many lps. And if its the best sounding versions Ill still be smiling.

    If they dont, theyll be someone to replace them with great sounding digital copies ran through an analogue chain.

    Ill smiling then also.

    Will you?
     
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  21. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    That assumption is not wholly a priori, as we have been told repeatedly by boutique labels and experts in the field (from writers like Fremer to mastering engineers on this site) that cutting analog from the original tape results in a superior sound. MoFi was one of the leading lights in this campaign in the 70s and 80s. And they used the same verbiage to claim they were continuing this tradition into the 2000s up to the present day.

    MoFi was one of the first companies to praise the virtues of cutting directly from the master tapes and in doing so became the leading premier label for audiophile releases. They deliberately cultivated the idea that they were cutting AAA when they were not because of the assumption that they helped popularize in the first place.
     
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  22. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    Its about many things. Including if digital sounds better or the same as analogue.

    Wish folks would stop with the "You need to stop bringing that up" or whatever.

    Your passion is they lied Im not happy or whatever. Valid.

    Others have differing ideas and thoughts on the topic. Also valid.
     
  23. Shpongle

    Shpongle Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Of course. I do as well Mazzy but I still don’t see you sharing those air buds with a fellow 68 year old!

    I’m sure lots of vinyl fans with great set ups use phones and buds on the go but for loads of kids that’s the ONLY way they listen to music. It was just a general observation about how music is consumed these day but I certainly take your point sir. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
     
  24. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    Like I said somewhere else in this thread, it’s genuinely awesome that MoFi has shown that DSD sourced records can sound nearly indistinguishable from AAA records. Now let’s support honest companies who are upfront about using DSD and offering great mastering.
     
  25. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I'd be surprised if it wasn't digital, given the '95 recording date. Then again, kd lang had gone analog a couple of years earlier with Ingénue. So, who knows...
     
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