I'd suggest listening to a great vinyl setup for an idea of the kind of SQ it can deliver. An oftentimes ignored or unknown bit of important (dare I say crucial) piece of information is regarding pressings of records. Getting the "right" pressing will make most systems sing whereas the wrong one will make it sound mediocre or not engaging at all. Getting the right pressing is like having your stereo on steroids for the playback of that album.
For the most part, I quite agree. The fly in the ointment though for all of us who pursue the pinnacle of playback is this, in the Sixties we all loved the records we played on gear that ranged from Wildcats on the low end to Duals on top, many of us with (ahem) "enhanced" listening capabilities. The Garrott Bros., Tiefenbrun, and that weirdo on the third floor who didn't bathe were outliers. The enjoyment came from the impact of music of a type heard for the first time written and recorded to appeal to us, not our parents. There's no second chance at a first time but it is possible to recreate much of that experience with funds carefully spent. I would wager that the OP, once his table/arm is sorted will begin to enjoy the records of his youth. The endless debate over analog vs. digital is pointless and a waste of listening time. I hear what I hear, you hear what you hear.
Yeah, it's hard for an entry level turntable setup to approach the transparency, immediacy, and dynamics of CD, even if you have your VTA, tracking force, and alignment optimally set up.
It's true that one has to spend more on a vinyl system than on a digital system to sound great , but certainly not as much as 5k. I had a nice refurbished vintage table with a good cartridge (new stylus), a decent phono stage, costing less than 1k and it did sound fantastic. Had I bought a similar vinyl system (similar in sound quality and materials) on today's new market maybe it would have costed me around 2.5k.
Here is my analog path: Started with $400 new table and $100 MM cartridge, using embedded phono preamp in $500 stereo receiver. Upgraded to $350 MM cartridge and $300 external phono preamp. Custom rework of phono preamp - new opamps, capacitors. Replaced MM cartridge with $300 MC cartridge. Replaced integrated amp and phono preamp with vintage Japanese preamplifier ($1500 at 1985) Purchased vintage Japanese turntable ($500 at 1980) Replaced MC cartridge with $900 MC cartridge. Replaced preamp with another vintage Japanese preamplifier ($2000 in 1980) Replaced vintage preamp with almost new Japanese preamplifier ($6000 in 2008) - was a great deal with 40% off. Sold both tables and got one vintage Japanese turntable ($2000 in 1978). Replaced MC cartridge with new $2000 MC cartridge. At this point I am finally good. The only thing left to try - new tube based phono preamplifier. But I could skip all of the above at come right where I am now. It would save me few thousand wasted on the way.
It does. More than that. In actual purchase prices I know have: $2000 turntable. $2000 cartridge. $1500 phono equalizer module for preamp. Total is $5500, as you can see. But unless you are lucky, you won't find that TT for that amount of money now. Exactly same phono equalizer now is more than what I paid several years ago. If we are talking about NEW gear purchased today - $4000 for TT, $2000 for cartridge and $2500 for phono preamp - this is what someone will have spend to get similar result to what I finally achieved to get sort of satisfaction.
I bought; Turntable with MC cart for 3200 Euro Phono stage for 1200 Euro It does sound better than the aforementioned vintage system and that was already great to listen to. So I guess we agree to disagree.
But is that really true, or is it just what a person like the OP would end up convincing him/herself because of the sunk cost fallacy? Especially since -- whoopsie! -- so many of the vinyl records that people were convinced "surpassed digital" actually came from digital sources. Even those which were really just a $29 SACD pressed onto a $120 vinyl record.
Satisfying turntables and phono stages can be had for half those amounts. Satisfying cartridges can be had for 10% of that.
As for the OP’s question, I’d suspect a setup issue first. I had an earlier model Fluance turntable with a cheaper conical-stylused cartridge and a phono stage that was built into the turntable, and even that sounded OK, definitely not muffled or uninteresting.
Hi, Well your system is definitely up to spec although you do not tell us what CD player you are using. The Blue is not the best cart in the world however is fairly decent, You can get a fairly big leap in performance by by changing the stylus to a OM30 (yes they do fit as they are the same cart, just with different bodes, or Bronze which is dearer for an extra piece of plastic!! HOWEVER, I think your T/T is the real problem, many people will decry this statement. But yes T/T system should sound better than CD, however I am not sure this one is good enough. Much better sited would be a Technics 1200 (look for a good S/H unit, plenty about) with an ungraded stylus. Cheers
I own a Luxman PD-272 and installed a VM540ML and all is great. $650 total outlay. My tube amp and speakers are fantastic so no issues there.
I’ve been an audiophile for 35+ years now, and yes, it is really true. Not sure I can speak to that since you’re talking a case-by-case basis, really… but I’ve done analog vs digital A-B’ing prior to what you describe being much of a thing. And, of course, the knife cuts both ways. What about all the CDs out there with bad mastering and/or that were victims of the ‘Loudness Wars’? Do those ‘whoopsies’ somehow invalidate the entire CD format as a broken promise, or are they just an unfortunate subset of what is actually overall a very viable format? Let’s face it… the performance of most any format can be picked at if one has an agenda going in (‘cept maybe reel-to-reel). .
I just want to reiterate this point. In my experience the most substantial variability in sound quality is not related to the equipment, but the mastering/pressing.
I don’t know the Fluance, only what I’ve read on this Forum. But your Cambridge amp and phono stage, Ortofon Blue cart and Klipsch speakers should be producing a really nice sound. You’ve spent a reasonable amount of money. The Blue Note albums are mastered by Kevin Gray and the original Prince (which can sound a bit dense) was mastered by Bernie Grundman, two of the best. I think the reissue was well mastered too (maybe by Bernie again, I forget). So you’ve got some great sounding albums. I’d take my vinyl original of Prince over the CD any day of the week. (But yes, you probable get more for £500 or $500 from a CD player than from an equivalent price deck and cart, that’s the way it is). Thus, taking this all into account you should be getting a nice sound. I don’t know what cables and interconnects you have, but you can upgrade well pretty cheaply. My layman’s initial thought, given your gear and your albums, is that it’s something to do with the turntable set up - cartridge alignment, tracking or counterweight etc. It shouldn’t be skipping with the right setup. Try the max cart tracking weight to start, and experiment down. If your Fluance is still under warranty, I’d have it checked over by your dealer. Last point - don’t expect your vinyl to sound the same as CD. One is analogue, one is digital. Whichever is best (and I like both, as well as streaming), they will sound different. Some prefer vinyl, some CD. To me they are both good, just different.
I don't think $5k it not right number. My front end is around $5k. It's really good. But I tend to think you could do pretty well under $2k. That being said, the answer is not buying something new in a box. This is unlike digital, ignoring complexities with DACs being part of the new equation, where you can just buy something new in a box. A $500 CD player will beat a $500 turntable assuming you have equal quality CDs and vinyl. I think the $500 out of the box turntable experience is not that great, regardless of brand. Likely you could have done better finding a used turntable for around $150 and a really good cartridge closer to $300. But the complexities of vinyl playback aren't as simple as that. You need the right $150 turntable that pairs well with the $300 cartridge. Then you'll have to find a decent phono stage that bridges well between the cartridge and the amplification. I also think that vinyl is a luxury that requires commitment. In a few years, you will be looking at spending hundreds and for a lot of us into the 4 figure range on either a stylus or new cart. Having said all this, my comment of equal quality CDs and vinyl isn't really a thing. Each represents different mastering is most cases. I can play both digital and vinyl on my system because I want access to whatever I want to hear. Still you do need to spend more on vinyl than you do on digital. This just the truth. I have a $15 dongle on my phone that outputs DSD tracks that I play in my car.
I agree that the records in use is as important as the gear ( more expensive TT/cart/stage can help but if to read less than good pressing, no way ). Everyday, now that I do have good "balanced" reproduction system * (less expensive than what I used before), I appreciate good pressing/mastering records. To the OP, maybe you just don't enjoy vinyl/records experience ? ... * Lyra Delos/AT VM540ML + Rockwell Rialto + LP12 + P3/C7XD = best sounding from good records ** Transrotor Max and Aurorasound Vida Prima was a bit "more neutral" but less "musical" on same gear *** balanced gear is a WIP job, this can take time/money with uncertain final results
No. Counter examples referencing components and prices have been posted too many times for something like this to be posted here.
Agree with all the posts saying it’s a setup issue. If you’ve not used one yet, double check tracking force with a cheap stylus force gauge from Amazon. I went through this when I first started with a turntable, and that was the problem. Tracking force much too light.
Vinyl was a fun novelty to me and I enjoyed collecting but found high rez streaming to sound better through several turntables including the Rega P3 w/ElysII. When I swapped that cart for an AT VM540ML and added the GT subplatter suddenly vinyl sounded as good and often better than digital! That was a revelation to me. So my point is that you do need to spend a bit more than entry level bucks to get to great sound with vinyl but not the $5k+ others are suggesting here.
@mclayton It'd be a good idea to double-check your setup and ensure that your turntable is isolated and hardened enough to prevent skipping from footfalls, etc. As for the sound, double-check your VTF, tracking angle, etc. You've also mentioned that CDs and streaming via Bluetooth sounds better, but you need to compare the same albums you've mentioned in your original post between the CD and LP versions. Don't forget that psychology plays a part that the brain thinks being "loud" sounds better, which is not necessarily always the case. There's also people who like to post diatribes against LPs with digital recording/mixing/mastering or anything related to LPs. Ignore those people since there are plenty of albums that utilizes a wholly dedicated master for vinyl with better dynamic range than the CD/digital mediums. The same can be said for those like to proclaim that analogue should and always be paramount and abandon anything digital.
$1700 for a new Techniques tt, $500 for a cart, and a decent phono stage. That’s $2700 plus the knowledge and tools to set up the tt and align the cart properly. That’s a very conservative guesstimate/minimum hardware effort required. Then there’s the medium. New pressings from the better pressing houses that have been remastered. There are unfortunately freshly made duds out there (there were duds back then too). If you buy used records, most require a trip through an ultrasonic cleaner or the glue treatment as they are in an unknown state of quality or care. But they can still have noise after cleaning due to previous wear or mishandling. It has to be a passion, you have to be all-in.
Someone here had a Fluance that they were unhappy with and they tracked it down to the quality of the arm. After upgrading the arm, they are happy. I’m not suggesting that the OP do that. I’m suggesting that they may not get what they are after with the Fluance. The idea that you have to spend $5k on an analog front end to get something musically satisfying is just wrong- and this comes from with a $9k analog rig. The new UTurn Theory and a Darlington Labs MM-6 would be a nice setup at under $1400.
