Did Syndication Prints really look this bad?

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by goodiesguy, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    You'd think everything would be getting converted for streaming services. You never know when some old show will take off thanks to a meme or whatever and demand will suddenly appear for it...
     
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  2. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    For those of you who watched The Brady Bunch in its original run from 1969-74, how many of you remember the "The Brady Bunch will return in a moment" bumper that was seen before the final commercial break (between the final act and the epilogue)?

    Seasons 1-2 had this using the same picture of the "squares" shot used in the opening and closing credits, while for seasons 3-5 it was a shot of the family on the stairway (seasons 3-4 had them on the stairs themselves, but season 5 relocated them to the landing before the stairs). Season 1 had a generic announcer, while seasons 2-5 used one of the show's nine cast members which varied from episode to episode.

    I wonder if any videos of these "return in a moment" bumpers exist? They were also seen on the first-generation syndicated prints used from 1975 to about 1985, but were removed from them after the videotaped remasters came out in 1985.
    Seasons 3-5 also had the IN COLOR bumpers before the opening credits, but were not preserved on DVD as had those for seasons 1-2, and as with the final commercial break bumpers, were removed from syndicated reruns after 1985.

    ~Ben
     
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  3. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    Actually, the season 1 premiere episode, "All the Way," used the original 1954 recording. Then starting with episode 2, "The Lemon," was when the re-recording was used. This re-recording took place in early January 1974 at Glen Glenn Sound and was only used for this series.

    ~Ben
     
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  4. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    Taxi was not in syndication until 1983, after NBC had already canceled the series. I am certain Paramount had made both formats available during this time.

    ~Ben
     
  5. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Syndication was not the point. The point is that Paramount was shooting on 35mm film throughout the 1980s but quickly switched to cutting on tape as soon as it was practical. I know for a fact that Star Trek: The Next Generation was shot on film and cut on tape, but Taxi was already off the air by 1983, which was before the video revolution really started affecting episodic TV. Paramount went through a transition from syndicating on 16mm to syndicating on videotape, and then syndicating via satellite by the end of the 1980s.

    I think for a lot of this minutia, the studio execs don't care about interstitial bumpers or end logos or anything like that. They only want to use the current corporate logo at the end to satisfy the people running the studio. Historical accuracy is not high on their list.
     
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  6. The problem is the surviving film elements for those shot on film and edited on videotape. The other problem is whether or not it would be cost prohibitive with their budget/sales.
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    I think there is one exception, this two-part "clips" episode from season 5, with the wraparound footage and the title clearly being video-based:
    "Taxi" A Taxi Celebration: Part 1 (TV Episode 1983) - IMDb
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
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  8. nosticker

    nosticker Forum Guy

    Location:
    Ringwood, NJ
    I've seen a bunch of those 1980s 1" masters and the ones I saw did not have those bumpers on them.


    Dan
     
  9. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    Yes, that was the one. It was the last episode produced, but not the last aired.

    ~Ben
     
  10. Mesozoic Mike

    Mesozoic Mike Forum Resident

    Location:
    Torrance CA
    In the early 80's, I was working in the Telecine Dept. for KNBC in LA. On weekends we ran the Bob Newhart Show midday and they were 16 mm prints which needed a lot of help to look presentable. It drove me crazy trying to get the correct flesh tones.
     
  11. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Very possible. As I said, the 1980s was a transition for Paramount, and in a lot of ways, the whole TV business. A TV special could very well be edited on tape. I think Lorimar was the first "studio" that started shooting on film and editing on tape, and once everybody saw how much faster it was, they did the same thing. 1984-1988 was that period of change. But there were shows like Murder She Wrote that cut on film all the way to 1996, because the producers didn't want to rock the boat. Everybody else had changed, though, mainly because of budget and speed.

    Oh, those ancient film chains in Burbank were awful -- TK-27's? TK-28's? The NBC network guys I knew there told me "we run a 35mm print with a 16mm print backup in case it breaks live on the air," which explained why sometimes shows looked "underwater" during some segments. Eventually, it all went to tape distribution -- I did quite a few Saturday morning shows that delivered to NBC on 1" tape, including Smurfs and Chipmunks, and they were huge successes. All initially done from 35mm low-con print on Ranks, eventually negative.
     
  12. 64FALCON

    64FALCON Forum Resident

    Speaking of "syndication prints" from long ago . . .

    I bought a VHS tape via eBay on VCI Entertainment which was issued in 2001 of the 1953 Western KANSAS PACIFIC. I'd seen the movie aired before on Turner Classic Movies so I thought to buy myself a copy. The insert artwork in the mid-sized clamshell case looks to have reproduced the poster and says 'In Thrilling Color!' .

    I also found a 1985 Video Treasures release of "Kansas Pacific" in 'SP mode' in a large clamshell case around the same time and I bought that, too, because it was cheap. I like having spares of some movies if they don't cost me much.

    Where the "syndicated print" question comes in: The VCI tape is the proper color version of the movie and it's pretty clear and looks like a transfer from a decent print -- I'm guessing a 35mm print?

    But I decided to play the Video Treasures tape as well and this version was in 'black-and-white' (much to my surprise -- the video box says 'Color' just like the VCI box did) and looks like it was taken from a 16mm/b&w print that had been circulated among television stations of the distant past and which was likely very cheap to obtain for broadcast.

    → Would a release like this seem to be like something that was transferred a long time ago from color/35mm to 16mm/B&W to syndicate cheaply to TV stations in the distant past? It looks like it, but I can't be certain. I reckon someone else on here would know better than I, to be sure. Also, the Video Treasures videocassette itself looks like new despite its age. I couldn't help but notice how un-used that tape looks after all this time when I bought it several months ago but the print on it is muddy and murky.

    (I think Video Treasures started as a 'Public Domain' label, but I don't know if they stayed that way. What I do recall is it didn't take Video Treasures too long to start releasing 'EP' mode swill that is best avoided!).
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2023
  13. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    That's odd about Murder, She Wrote being both shot and edited on film for all that time. It's thus one of the few series to have the filmed version of Universal Television's 1991 logo.


    And speaking of Paramount Television, there were a handful of filmed syndicated prints they did into the 1990s, including this version of their CGI Mountain from this 1977 special, Having Babies II.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXcorSnvUjQ

    ~Ben
     
  14. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    And if there's anything that was shot on videotape but edited on film for early syndication, it's the handful of episodes from season 2 of the original version of The Twilight Zone.

    As far as I know, no other series alternated between filmed and taped episodes (within a single season) before the 1980s. Of those shows released since, The Powers of Matthew Star (1982-83) had three episodes shot on film and then edited on tape.

    ~Ben
     
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  15. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US
    According to the Closing Logo Group from long ago, does anybody remember watching Rugrats (or any other NickToon such as Ren & Stimpy or Rocko's Modern Life) in local syndication and seeing the 1995 Paramount Television logo with the 1979 music?

    According to this website, when looking at the details for the 1987-2001 logo...
    Paramount Television
    ~Ben
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2023
  16. 64FALCON

    64FALCON Forum Resident

    Here's something I discovered:

    I bought a VCI Video tape issued in the late 1990s of the 1953 color Western KANSAS PACIFIC starring Sterling Hayden, Eve Miller and Barton MacLane a few years ago. I accidentally messed up the tape a lil' bit so I decided to pick up a spare. The VCI tape was in the 'SP' mode unlike some other VHS releases of "Kansas Pacific", btw. So I wanted to find another 'SP' mode tape of KP. I found a 1985-release Video Treasures clamshell issue of "Kansas Pacific" in Standard Play mode with a nice, heavy tape on eBay and picked it up for a few bucks.

    I decided to watch the tape shortly after receiving it in the mail and I noted the print used on the Video Treasures release was a 16mm black-and-white syndicated television print. No color here! And the picture quality wasn't nearly as decent as the later VCI release. Blurry B&W. And so it goes.
     
  17. Jayson Wall

    Jayson Wall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    AFRTS (Armed Forces Radio and Television Service) would get B&W 16mm kinescopes of videotape shows, like the Jeffersons, Good Times, All In The Family, etc---along with kinescopes of specials shot on tape. I own a few AFRTS 16mm prints of Frank Sinatra specials (with all the original Sinatra Budweiser ads) from the late '60s and a fun one called “Johnny Carson Discovers Cypress Gardens" from 1968, so they do pop-up from time to time. 16mm kinescopes of videotape shows continued to be produced, in very small numbers, into the late 70s, like episodes of The Muppet Show, but the ones I have seen were for the European market and not domestic syndication.

    In LA, KLTA ran 35mm prints of both these programs, which didn't have the title change--only the 16mm prints had the syndicated title--as a kid seeing these shows when I was on vacation, with these title changes fascinated me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2024
  18. Benjamin Edge

    Benjamin Edge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukie, OR, US


    While I know this messed-up Paramount Television 1990 logo (1978 music) appeared on both Nick at Nite's and on some Me-TV reruns of Taxi (1978-83), I wonder if it also appeared on some locally syndicated NickToons reruns (Rugrats, Ren & Stimpy, Doug, et al)?

    ~Ben
     
  19. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Fun fact about Ted Turner, did you know that he got his start in radio. In the Chattanooga, Tennessee market. He owned a station with the call letters of WGOW (back then branded Super Go). He wanted to gain the #1 ratings in that market.

    He tried to hire Luther Massengale of WDEF AM/FM/TV fame (a veteran broadcaster and well respected by Chattanooga and market residents, away from WDEF). It didn't work. Ted Turner offered every inducement and a large pay raise, Luther had never worked for any other broadcaster, and refused to turn his back on WDEF, he was very loyal. Ted Turner sold the station and went into the Television broadcast field. The rest is history.

    Ted Turner began his TV career by buying WTCG-TV 17 in Atlanta, GA (WTCG stood for Watch This Channel Grow), which became SuperStation WTBS-17, then carried via Satellite, then became TBS (Turner Broadcasting System) and begat TNT and became a major force in the industry! Some history for you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2024
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  20. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    yes, I knew most of it...thanks.
     
  21. Eric Richard

    Eric Richard Forum Resident

    Did network shows in the 1950s ever have music cut off due to splicing in of the commercial?
     
  22. Jayson Wall

    Jayson Wall Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    In most of the black-and-white network AirPrints from the 1950s, the commercials were edited into camera negatives and Optical track negatives of the show, and when printed by the lab, there was no splice on the print. Now, hour-long shows would have splices as they would need to be assembled from 2 or 3 sections, but many times those reels were joined in the middle of a scene or a fade out inside the program, with the correct pull-ups for no audio loss (by and large). Most were "blooped" over the splice, so there was no "pop" on playback on air--again, this was the norm when it came to B&W. Moving into the '60s, color did change the assembly process as more and more commercials were physically spliced into the prints---Shows like Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color were 35mm and 16mm IB Tech air prints (from 1962 up to 1971), and those were all assembled/spliced together at the lab with commercials, bumpers, and logos. No music was ever cut off due to splicing on those prints that I have seen---yet I'm sure some prints got out with the music cut off due to splicing, but it wasn't the norm for network air prints.
     
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  23. Bob Voldar

    Bob Voldar Forum Resident

    The same thing was done to "Emergency!". Back in 1976 the first 5 seasons went in syndication and were titled "Emergency One". That was done to "avoid confusion" with the still on the air Saturday night series. When the show went off the air after the 1976-77 season the syndicated episodes went back to the original "Emergency!" title. Speaking of that show, the DVD set has a good deal of episodes that were sourced from syndicated prints. Soft looking images, muffled sound and occasional "green blobs".
     
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  24. All Rights

    All Rights Senior Member


    Turner also had the Braves wear nicknames on their uniform instead of real names.
    Jimmy Wynn AKA the Toy Cannon:
    [​IMG]

    Phil Niekro:
    [​IMG]


    As a advertising gimmick he gave newly signed Andy Messersmith uniform number #17 with the name Channel above it to plug his TV station (since the main camera angle on televised baseball games shows the pitchers back)
    NL prez Chub Feeney soon put a stop to it.
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Kyle B

    Kyle B Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    The retitling happened quite a bit in those days. The worst (and weirdest) retitle? Reruns of “Marcus Welby MD” were retitled “Robert Young, Family Doctor” in 1975. The new title didn’t last long; Marcus Welby was cancelled the following year and the reruns reverted to the original title.
     
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