I want to set a secondary system, preferably new. I have initialy planned to buy a Yamaha A-S201 and a pair of ELAC Debut B 6.2. But I wonder if in the long term I will miss the lower frequencies (I have an old pair of Vieta PR7 with 10" woofers in my main system). Would it be easy to add a sub later? I have never used any sub, and I am completely lost on what I have read so far, concerning connections, crossovers, etc My doubt is if I should instead buy a pair of ELAC Debut B5.2 and the Yamaha A-S301, which has a dedicated sub out (filtering frequencies above 90 Hz I think), and buying later the sub if needed. It is a jack, so I suppose It needs a powered sub. Would It sound well without the sub? (I mean, would It filter the speakers output expecting the use of the sub?). Would It pair well with the cheaper Elac Debut subs, for instance? Which element would filter the low frequencies for the speakers whem the sub is plugged? Would it be a good setup at all? I can currently hear the difference when I bypass the tone controls on my Rotel amp, so maybe introducing additional filters for the sub is not a good idea after all. Has the introducción of a sub a detrimental effect on the sound in a budget setup? What do you think?
If you don't set it up correctly, yes. I'm about the biggest sub proponent as there could be, but getting the sub right is something that takes some learning and time. Most likely you are having a time alignment issue(placement+perhaps settings), and also a phase issue. Start there. Some subs have an immensely valuable delay adjustment. That adjustment will allow you to time align the sub with the mains. Many AV receivers also have a setting on distance. Same thing. I could be mistaken from memory but 5ms is roughly 2 feet.
Since the A-S301 has a built in sub crossover @ ~90hz, your should try not set the manual crossover of any sub you purchase right @ 90hz (so you don't cascade anything). Set it at 60/70 hz or so (stay ~20 hz away). Btw, good choice on the Yamaha, your speaker's designer tends to use Yamaha amps when he voices them. Hence, it tends to be a pretty good match. I suppose you are looking for a really budget sub that isn't a disappointment? You should perhaps see if you can find a Elac Sub1010 (130 USD) in your country. It still has a Andrew Jones designed (from scratch) driver/Class AB amp/rca inputs/speaker level inputs. You won't get extension down below 20 hz for this budget, of course, but, neither do the RELs that cost several fold more. The Elac sub should compliment/sound musical with your Elac debut speakers. https://www.amazon.com/Elac-SUB1010-Powered-Subwoofer-SUB1010-BK/dp/B07WHTXFWV
That is why I am asking. I am not really sure I know how to choose and set up the gear. For instance, I don't see any sub setting on the A-S301, which in príncipe has a sub output
Thank you for your suggestion. What I do not understand is the management of the frequencies on that Yamaha amp. On the manual it is said that the sub Jack is intended for active subwoofers, and that the frequencies are attenuated above 90 Hz, but nothing is said about the speakers output. Shouldn't they be attenuated below 90 Hz? How is it done? If done by the amp, is it also done when no sub is connected? As you see, I am lost in this subject
I'll focus my advice on that one line. I've not looked up the owner's manual for that Yamaha, so I'll assume what you say is correct: there's a sub out with a LPF set at 90 Hz. IMHO that makes it next to useless for doing any form of proper bass management. What one really should be looking for is a sub out with a selectable HPF, so that the lowest frequencies get sent to the sub, and the higher ones to the mains, with but a minimum amount of mixing of the two (which will depend on the slope of the HPF). That's proper bass management. Unfortunately, almost no integrated amplifiers have them. If the amp does not have that, then you're looking at either an external line-level device that will handle the bass management duties, or a sub with a set of pass-through low- or high-level circuits, with HPF. Every sub of any value will have its own LPF - which is why having one in an integrated amp, or other such device, is redundant / useless. Lots more I could say, but I'll leave that to others, for now. Jeff
- The Yamaha amp sends signals 90hz and under to the sub rca out, irrespective of what your subwoofer crossover dial is set to. - You will note that the sub linked above (picture) has a crossover value (crossover knob) ranging from 40 hz to 150 hz. - I think your elac speaker may start to roll off around 60 hz (not sure). Search for some measurments on it. - If you connect the subwoofer to the rca out, you will dovetail your sub in around where your speaker rolls off. You want it to sum nicely with no peaks or dips in the response (when you are rolling your sub in). - You can also connect a 2nd pair of speaker wire to the sub's speaker level connections (no rca). In this case, the method to roll the sub in is as stated above. You could watch this video and write down some notes. His example is for a more complex servo controlled subwoofer with more controllable user variables (variable phase, peq, etc). But, it should still give you a good idea about some tricks involved when rolling a subwoofer in (i mean, this is what you have to resort to with 2 channel gear that has no pristine/clean bass management features).
It has a sub out, but no high pass filter. It does however send everything below 90hz to the sub, but full range to the mains. I'll cut to the chase. Without a high pass filter it becomes difficult to achieve nirvana, but you can get close. Find an amp that has at a minimum adjustable output on the sub out. High pass filter even better. A lot of units offer that. An entry level AVR will have both. I will go so far as to say a vast majority of integrated amp owners below $5k are better off with an AVR. I don't know of an integrated that allows you to move the sweet spot fore and aft. I know the arguments about integrated advantages, but implementation and end results overcome those rather easily. Get the right amp first.
The high pass filter is more needed than most realize, especially manufacturers and audiophiles who view subs as a sacrilege. It's just now coming to understanding. You see it starting to be brought in by speaker manus. Take a look at KEF's active systems.
Setting up up a Sub is super easy. Start off with low volume so it doesn't overpowered the system. It's that simple. Then start raising it until you like what you hear!!! I've bought a budget friendly 10" Powered Sub made by polkaudio for my surround system. Now & then, I've got it integrated in my vintage Marantz receiver. Easy peasy.
Setting up a sub is trial and error, but if you get the right crossover, delay settings, etc., then write them down.
Could it really be done with only controls on the sub, and no control and full frequency range on the speakers?
Yep....particularly if you don't want change the sound of your speakers.Roll the sub in below the bass roll off of your speakers with 4th order(steep)crossover and don't be too heavy handed with the sub volume.
So, If I understand correctly you wouldn't need the high pass filter, and rather relay on the limited range of the speakers for this
Yes if your your speakers play clean in the bass it might even be preferable to let them do their thing and just bring the sub in "under" them....works for me
Another question: Could it be maybe better to use a passive sub? Could I use the A+B speakers setup un the amp for this? (A speakers, B sub). Have passive subs a stereo input?
Well, the answer to the middle question would be yes for that Yamaha amp (on the manual it is stated that the speakers terminals could be used for bi-wired speakers, with tweet/midrange on A and woofers on B) but still: is it also true for other amps? Is it convenient at all?
In the case of my vintage Marantz receiver, it does not have a Sub out, so a passive Sub wouldn't work for me. Speaker B is used to run speaker wires to the Powered Sub, and all controls are set at the Sub. Speaker A output runs my 2 way speakers like they did before, no need to adjust anything prior or after. Again, easy peasy.
Absolutely, REL advises to do it that way. I tried it the 'classic' way (sub out on preamp) and didn't like it at all over speakers playing full range. Your speakers are designed to run full range! But setting up a sub properly, if you don't know what to listen for etc, is NOT easy despite what some claim. If you just want to add some boom maybe, but that's not what a sub is about. The learning curve however has been the most rewarding in audio for me!
Yes, It is not the boom what I want. My old Elacs already have the boom, but they are lacking "something" when compared with my older and crappy PR7
