Budged subwoofer?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by lrpm, Feb 4, 2023.

  1. lrpm

    lrpm Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    Ok, I understand that a powered sub can have both line and power inputs, but my question was about using the B power output of the amp to feed an unpowered sub
     
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  2. Hanks3

    Hanks3 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Tx
    It is that boom from the Elac's or any other speaker for that matter that causes the problem with integration, and hence the need for a high pass filter. The lower end of its frequency band is most times an issue of builders trying to eek out low end extension. This in turn leads to several issues, but what is heard is an unnatural bass hump where the sub and speaker are replicating the same frequencies at different amplitudes. In two way designs this chase for low end extension also also impacts the clarity and volume of midrange frequencies(compression). By cutting off the lowest frequencies the midrange driver is freed up producing a better sound. One of the best sounding systems I have heard recently was centered around some 801's crossed at 80hz. You wouldn't think a speaker that big would realize a benefit, but it sure did.
     
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  3. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Not my experience (quite the opposite).
     
  4. Hanks3

    Hanks3 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Tx
    I would like to hear more about your experience. I did notice you use REL; how is that employed? Where are you crossing?

    Being a D’Appolito might also come into play.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  5. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Perhaps still on topic...

    I have multiple systems throughout my home, with all of them being supported by at least one subwoofer.

    Choosing but one of them to focus on the most recent of this thread's posts...

    In my family room I have a Pioneer AVR. I use its stereo Zone output as the source for another system in my living room (56' of 12AWG speaker cable away.) Only a pair of speakers (Totem Sttaf) and a subwoofer (Velodyne Chrysalis Photon-10) sit in the living room (very high WAF!)

    Because neither the AVR's Zone outputs (stereo L/R RCA), nor the subwoofer, can do proper bass management (ie. have a HPF), I use an external crossover (Rolls SX45) for that task.

    So the signal flow is:

    Pioneer AVR Zone stereo RCA out > Rolls SX45 (HIGH OUT) > (above ~75 Hz) NAD 2155 power amp > Totem Sttaf
    (MONO LOW OUT) > (below ~75 Hz) Velo subwoofer

    On their own, the Totem Sttaf are a surprisingly capable pair of speakers - even in the bass region - however whenever they are pushed to moderate levels and beyond, they begin to get seriously overloaded by the bass, compressed, and the midrange goes to crap. They are the perfect speaker to illustrate the need for proper bass management! They can't be left to their own devices (ie. let them roll off "naturally" in the deep bass). Take away their low frequency duties and there is a tremendous improvement in how the system sounds. Plus there's at least a full octave of solid bass added to the bottom end of the system - for music that demands it.

    Jeff
     
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  6. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    In my experience a properly integrated sub always enhances the midrange of good speakers running full range. My speakers run full range, the Rel is dialed in (using high level, speaker connection from the amp) where it sounds best. One click up or down on the crossover, one click up or down on the gain (both on the Rel) and the magic is gone/back.
    Taking away the low freqs of my speakers (using the 'classic way' of hooking up a sub, via a subout) sounded like krap and took away all that magic. If your speakers can't handle big volume and sound muddy or whatever in low bass, I understand you would want to use that method, but mine sound perfect allright with big volume.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
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  7. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Pretty sure you'd need a separate amp to push the passive Sub, but dont quote me. This is why I mentioned the powered Sub and my B speakers output.
     
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  8. HIRES_FAN

    HIRES_FAN Forum Resident

    You wouldn't believe how many non-audiophile/hometheater guys (whose 'feature rich by default' rigs i've audited) have better sound with little effort than the audiophiles with their feature starved high dollar gear.
     
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  9. Hanks3

    Hanks3 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Tx
    So, you did not use a high pass filter?
     
  10. Hanks3

    Hanks3 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Tx
    I won't/can't say too much, but it is now a widely understood issue. The "how" while saving face is part of a delicate melding of several issues outside of the obvious.

    But yes, you are correct in that the low feature offerings, as it is right now, aren't providing the optimal experience that other lesser gear does. It will get there. I don't just belive you, I have seen it with my own ears.

    It doesn't just impact the electronics end, it's the speakers that is the hurdle. "Hey, ...uhhh... everything we have been telling and selling you is wrong. Oops."
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  11. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    No (but as I said, I have tried it and compared both).
     
  12. Jeff Kent

    Jeff Kent Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Kisco, NY
    Is a cheap subwoofer better than no subwoofer?
     
  13. Bob J

    Bob J Forum Resident

    Yes.
     
  14. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    IF-and it's a big IF with smaller speakers-you can crank them up to them moon and they don't distort, then you don't need a highpass filter. If as is more usual, the speakers distort due to the woofers moving like crazy, then you MUST have a highpass filter.* Which most 2-channel units stupidly do not have, even ones with a "subwoofer" output.
    - Sorry, you just have to really check the manual. If it does not mention anything about highpass or filter, there isn't one, too bad so sad "Thank u NEXT")
    - Nor do they have room correction, which is almost a must to more easily integrate a subwoofer and definitely to achieve flatter bass.** Some subwoofers have limited correction functions.
    - Hence even for stereo you may well be better off with an AVR. Don't assume stereo units automatically sound better because they are somehow more "pure" or whatever, it's not that simple.
    As for
    Well, an inexpensive one like Monoprice I bought my brother, or Dayton or Klipsch or Polk will be definitely be better up to medium loud volume levels, so long as you get a big cone (i.e. 12"+). Some cheap plastic bandpass piece of turd with an 8" driver, NO.

    *Adding a sub will add more bass but won't reduce the mains' distortion.
    **see the curves at, for instance
    Audyssey MultEQ-X Room EQ Software Review Test Bench
    JL Audio Fathom f110v2 powered subwoofer Measurements
     
  15. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    How do you like the Polk subwoofer? After reading a few recommendations, I bought a pair of Polk speakers for the rear L/R. I'm happy so far with those. I'm interested in a SW, but don't want to spend a lot.
     
  16. lrpm

    lrpm Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    Finally I bought the Yamaha A-301 and a pair of Dali Oberon 1. Quite small size but very sayisfied even without subwoofer
     
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  17. Clonesteak

    Clonesteak Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kalamazoo, MI
    I have a Yamaha A-S301 hooked up with some Klipsch Heresy IV speakers plus a Klipsch sub 10” and love the combination of all three.
    Did you mean to write A-S301? Regardless this is a very capable integrated amp. I am sure you will be happy for many years with the amp. I am not familiar with Dali Oberon 1 but would love to see some pics of your new set up. I recommend getting a sub. I personally can’t live without one.
     
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  18. lrpm

    lrpm Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    Yes, of course, A-S301, my mistake.
    I can take I pic
     
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  19. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I like it, but I've never compared it against anything. I dont believe it would be considered audiophile by this forums standards, but it's more than good enough for me. But again, I stress that my main speakers do the sound stage, and the Sub just enhances the low end. I have never even tried pushing the Sub beyond that.

    I have no regrets owning a Polk Sub!
     
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  20. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    That's basically what I'm looking for, but that does not seem to be enough for many people here.
     
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  21. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Ever use it in a faux surround-sound situation (i.e., 5 channel stereo)? I think it would add nicely to some of those old (1930s) mono big band recordings, which I often listen to with the 5 channel stereo setting.

    Or must one listen to a true 5.1 multi-channel recording for the subwoofer to work?
     
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  22. BruceS

    BruceS El Sirviente del Gato

    Location:
    Reading, MA US
    I really am not fond of stating the obvious, but all that matters is what is "enough" for you. How many here would approve of my Kanto Sub 8 (not to mention the Sub 6 in another room)? I don't know. But I do. Keep it simple, man. You want some bass boost? Go for it!
     
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  23. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I prefer a smaller SW, but am I correct that a SW like the Kanto Sub 8 shoots at least some of the bass out of the bottom (as opposed to the front, like a 10" Polk PSW108)?
     
  24. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I have used it on my Yamaha 5.1 surround receiver with 2 channel music, which gives it (as you call it) a faux surround sound, but not with true 5.1 music. Regardless, it has never disappointed on my surround receiver, nor my 2 channel Marantz receiver. I will always prefer music with a Sub!
     
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  25. misterjones

    misterjones Smarter than the average bear.

    Location:
    New York, NY
    As long as it works (i.e., pumping out the bass) with regular CDs, that's good enough for me. I assume an authentic 5.1 (or 7.1) mix has its own special feed that is predetermined to be appropriate for the 7/5.1 mix (e.g., a roll of thunder in a movie or a bass in music). Using it in the faux setting I described, I assume you even get some vocals via the SW.
     
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