Denafrips Dacs

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bever70, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    I was a little alarmed to find the output impedance for the Pontus II was 1500 ohms … after I bought it … but my preamp’s balanced input is 40k ohms, so 26.7x. Seems to be enough, I don’t hear anything amiss anyway.
     
  2. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Yeah that’s plenty high. My preamp’s input is only 2kohms.
     
    Rick58 likes this.
  3. chipcalzada

    chipcalzada Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Philippines
    Looking forward to your impressions. Adding the Iris to my system was so good I ended up making a thread about it here.
     
    Rick58 likes this.
  4. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    Denafrips Iris DDC I read thru most of it, thanks.
     
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  5. JCB64

    JCB64 Member

    Location:
    France
    For those interested by the "stanby/on" subject discussed p. 43 of this thread (Denafrips Dacs ) . I have done measurements on standby consumption of the Pontus 2 (12th) :

    Standby mode : 8W (!!!) . Idle Mode coming from standby : 8W, no change. Music playing : 17W. Idle coming from playing : 17W (I suppose it goes to 8W after a while). Standby coming from playing or 17W mode : 8W instantly.

    For me, this is almost a deal breaker. With energy costs, problems, and planet issues, 8W constantly, for nothing, is way too much. I have plugged the Pontus on a remote controlled plug, to hard off it, but Denafrips should provide a real standby mode, < 1W consumption.
     
  6. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Wow, that's surprising. I keep mine on all the time, just like most people here, but I had no idea it consumed that much. I might have to rethink my habits. Good info, thanks.
     
  7. Dafox

    Dafox Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    The cost of a clock oven I suppose.
     
  8. Silverwolf

    Silverwolf Occasional Esoteric Freak

    Agreed that isn’t great compared to ‘normal’ standby of many hifi/tv products, but I’ve read somewhere that ladder DACs only sound their best if left on all the time, otherwise they can take several hours to ‘warm up’. This doesn’t sound like hifi nonsense somehow, especially looking at internal photos of these DACs. Perhaps this is why they need the extra watts even on standby? Even my normal Dacmagic Plus doesn’t sound right if it’s been off for some time, although that only takes half hour to sound right.
    I get the eco bit, but I did work out that would only cost 6.5 pence a day for me, and electric is expensive at the moment. And a lot of the big powerful amps people use on this forum would use hundreds of times that power in an hour or 2 of use, compared to 24 hours of a Denafrips on standby plus a few hours use…
     
    bever70 likes this.
  9. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    8 watts has an approximate cost of $7 annually for 24/7 operation.
     
    daveNH, Glmoneydawg, Kyhl and 3 others like this.
  10. Harris11235

    Harris11235 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    For me, it’s more about conscious consumption than money. Still, knowing how R2R DACs operate and sound their best, I don’t think I’ll be changing my habits with this particular piece of equipment.
     
    Glmoneydawg likes this.
  11. Jaytor

    Jaytor DIY Enthusiast

    Location:
    Oregon
    Devices that dissipate only 1W in standby are generally just powering enough circuitry for the remote control to be able to turn on the device.

    In the case of the Denafrips DACs, I suspect that standby mode powers up most if not all the analog circuitry and oscillators, and only keeps the digital circuitry powered down.
     
  12. Silverwolf

    Silverwolf Occasional Esoteric Freak

    Wow, I thought 8w in the UK was reasonable - I’d be paying nearly £24 a year for that here!
     
  13. fish

    fish Senior Member

    Location:
    NYS, USA
    I used a local calculator but we are nearly entirely natural gas in my neck of NY. my house built in 1900 always had gas, the prior house I had built in the mid 1800's had gas lighting. Both had steam heat, gas fired. (not any more)

    I use to run my McAlister SET preamp and amp 24/7, it was allot like running an electric space heater... My monthly budget at the time dropped significantly when I stopped using them!
     
    Silverwolf likes this.
  14. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    I wouldn’t leave an amp, especially a tube amp, on 24/7. But 8W for the Pontus II seems like a reasonable price to pay for the sonics. I leave it on all the time, don’t touch the button. Oh well.
     
    bever70 likes this.
  15. danomar

    danomar My spoon is too big.

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    FWIW I contacted Vinshine shortly after getting my Pontus II to ask if it was okay to disconnect power to the unit. At the time, I was using a Panamax as a master power control. I was told it is perfectly fine to disconnect power from the Pontus frequently—but as expected, was told that best results come from leaving it in standby mode. That ensures the clock and other components are up to near-optimal temperature.

    Something I learned from my previous DAC: Disconnecting power from the DAC requires the upstream source to re-find and re-connect to the DAC, sometimes making life a bit difficult. I learned to leave my DAC (and DDC) in standby all the time even if I have to pay for that extra electricity.
     
  16. daveNH

    daveNH Well-Known Member

    Location:
    NH
    Here in rural NH we lose power from time to time, usually quick hitters from high winds that cause the local power company to switch feeds. These outages shut off our Pontus II, which we keep on all the time. I can attest that once the DAC has been turned off, it takes several hours for it to come back up to its regular sound. YMMV
     
    fish likes this.
  17. E.Baba

    E.Baba Forum Resident

    Some countries have off switches on their wall plugs.

    I keep my Pontus II on all the time. It's given me the best digital sound I've ever had.
     
    goldwax, jmathers and Rick58 like this.
  18. EastConcept

    EastConcept Forum Resident

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Hello Denafrips owners!

    I own a Pontus II. I'm looking into Bi-Amping and was wondering if it would be safe to run two analogue signals (XLR to one amp and RCA to another amp).

    Before I dive head first, does anybody know whether it would this be safe to do this with this DAC?
     
  19. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    Apparently not. The output impedance of the Pontus II is high (1500 ohms?), and apparently there’s something in the manual about running one or the other but not both.
     
    EastConcept likes this.
  20. RockAddict

    RockAddict Sanity is an illusion, just like democracy

    Location:
    UK
    Depending upon the exact setup, it * may * be possible to split the RCA out to two separate amps - I have a circuit diagram showing this. That said, it's probably best to contact Vinshine with details of the kit in question to see if it would work with that kit and, or course, to make sure Vinshine still offer that route as a workable option.

    Edited to add: Originally, I wanted to run two separate amps; one being the main system amp, the other a dedicated headphone amp. In the end, I got a Quad Artera Pre which, happily, has a headphone output which is more than good enough for me.
     
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  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    No, you shouldn't do that.

    The Denafrips (and Holo Audio) don't have separate output stages for XLR and RCA. Running both the RCA and XLR outputs at the same time will cause one of the legs of the XLR to be unequal to the other leg. And that will degrade sound quality. Not good. Don't do that.

    Denafrips does have a solution to let you have two pairs of RCA outputs.
    Explanation is here: https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/can-i-connect-the-dac-output-to-two-devices

    It's a custom cable that gets you two right channel RCA outputs from the right channel XLR. And two left channel RCA outputs from the left channel XLR. The result is you end up with two RCA stereo channels that you can connect to two amps at the same time.

    edit: One thing I'm not sure about with this solution is whether it could cause an absolute polarity difference between the split-off RCA channels? Where one right channel RCA would be flipped (180 degrees) from the other right channel RCA. And same problem with the left channels. I'm not a hardware engineer (I do software) and rely on others with actual hardware engineering knowledge of circuits and physical things to figure this stuff out for me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2023
  22. jfeldt

    jfeldt Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF, CA, USA
    Yes, if the diagram in the link you sent is correct, one L and one R would be opposite phase from the other L and R.

    It’s cool they provide that cable though, even though it’s a bummer they don’t have separate output stages for the balanced and single ended outputs.
     
  23. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    That's what I thought. The two RCA channels will be out of phase with each other. So if using this setup for bi-amping you'd need the crossover to compensate for the flipped phase, or you'd need DSP to compensate for that.

    The design choice for Denafrips and Holo Audio to not have an additional output stage is intentional. They're able to design the resistor ladder network to deliver enough power and electrical engineering voodoo to drive the RCA and XLR outputs without needing an additional output stage. And for audio gear the most transparent gain stage or output stage is no output stage. That may be a reason why the Denafrips and Holo Audio DACs get high marks for transparency compared to other DACs. (I'm just an unfrozen caveman software engineer and the best I can manage to explain the electrical engineering side of audio gear design is to describe it as electrical engineering voodoo).
     
  24. jfeldt

    jfeldt Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF, CA, USA
    I appreciate the Phil Hartman reference lol. I’m sure the lack of the extra stage is intentional, just different trade-offs.

    tradeoff 1: More purity in the DAC but then you need an active pre-amp and need to check the synergy with the high output impedance.
    tradeoff 2: A DAC with extra devices inside for stronger drive, with the potential for a passive pre-amp, potentially giving even fewer gain stages and devices total if you look end to end. If someone doesn’t or can’t take advantage of a passive pre, this doesn’t help the purity aspect.
     
  25. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    It is trade-offs. I've been considering a Denafrips or Holo Audio DAC or similar. The biggest trade-off for me would be not being able to plug in two headphone amps to the DAC at the same time. I have lots of headphones amps. I like to plug them into DACs. Being able to only plug in one at a time really cramps my style.

    If I did get a Denafrips or Holo Audio or similar DAC I'd have to deal with setting up switch boxes and the mess of cables that goes along with that. It would make for a messy and confusing audio setup. And I'd rather not do that. But in the pursuit of audio quality I might.
     

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