I'm not talking about the game as it's for some bizarre reason frowned upon. In the show, the idea is that they need to harvest the cordyceps from Ellie's living brain tissue. You kill her prematurely and the brain tissue dies, so it ruins the entire operation. Otherwise Marlene could have just killed Ellie in Boston and stuck her in ice. No one is disputing that's what the showrunners want to leave us with. The question is why Mazen and Druckmann weren't interested in exploring with the audience valid reasons Joel might have done what he did. To me that question is more interesting--they're the ones framing Joel's fictional choices.
I fail to see how the show is shying away from violence when the last two episodes had Joel brutally murdering lots of people. His bravery and commitment as a father figure? The show made it morally ambiguous at best, because he killed a ton of people who were...trying to save humanity.
It's not bizarre to anyone in this thread except you. You have your own thread to discuss the game and compare it to the show. This thread is only about the tv show, for people who only care about the tv show, not the video game and don't care for comparison/contrast with the game. Please don't come over to this one and make negative aspersions on the concept of "No Spoilers From the Game here". You are welcome to post here (as you've obviously chosen to multiple times already) but please, no more criticism on the existence of this thread and why it exists.
I agree, I'm just criticizing the production style. I described the issue in previous posts. Even if a biotherapeutic could be successfully developed with the staff and instrumentation available...clinically testing it, manufacturing it, transporting it, and getting the population to comply would be an impossibility. Killing a girl for no logical reason will never save humanity, regardless of explanations. Since time immemorial, corrupt people sacrificed innocents to serve one God or another. Joel put a stop to that in his own way. This discussion forum doesn't belong to you or me. The game is the original source material. You started this thread when you and others got bent out of shape because I told you that Frank/Bill were irrelevant to the story and their love affair was superfluous. I still stand by that. A separate thread need not have been started.
Irrespective of your Frank and Bill posts I feel that some people were just happy to have someone else to post about the show as your discourse was constant, repetitive and suffocating. A separate thread was needed and welcomed.
And the other point still remains - many of us wanted a place to discuss the tv series without wanting to know anything about the game, or about what would be happening next in the game versus the series. The other thread allowed/allows spoilers, so it was always a risk for those of us who haven't played the game, or didn't care about the game, or simply wanted to enjoy the series as a standalone production. That's why this thread needed to be created. And I don't agree with GregM's position that Bill and Frank were irrelevant to the series. Whether they were irrelevant to the game or not is immaterial to me as someone who only cares about the series. That's the type of information that is best discussed in the other thread. For me and many others, they were absolutely relevant to the series itself.
If someone starts a thread specifically to get away from you and you just can't see that, I don't know what to say.
That is illogical. You cannot want to discuss the TV series without wanting to know anything about the game because the show is based on the game and was written by Druckmann, who wrote the show. Your point is not valid. It's like saying you want to discuss a recording and ban mention of how instruments were mic'ed, the condition of the master tapes, etc. That's also illogical as neither Bill nor Frank had any bearing whatsoever on the key events of the show and thrust of the narrative. You take out Frank and Bill and it's exactly the same story. If we can't even agree on that, we really are in a different universe. You could say we're free to express ourselves as we wish in a topical discussion. But you wouldn't say that because your goal is censorship.
Cmon man, you're gaslighting us. You were implying that it was a "sign of the times" that the show's writers didn't want to show Joel as a strong father figure, as if it's a bad thing to be a strong male now so that's why the episode played out as it did. The reality is Joel killed a ton of people to protect someone he sees as his daughter now. Morally ambiguous situation at best.
I disagree. Joel became the villain with that act. Of course she should be sacrificed to save humanity; this is a no-brainer (no pun intended) - assuming that making a cure out of her is probable, and the show gave no indication that it wouldn't be. Of course, logic doesn't dictate that this would be possible in that world, but shows make their own logic. There was nothing in the narrative to suggest that what they doctors were trying to do could not actually be done. Therefore, the audience must assume that it could be. So, Joel is very much in the wrong.
And yet plenty of people chose that avenue and participated here in this thread, your logic be damned. This thread is about the adaptation shown on HBO only, not the points where it diverges from its source material, which is not important to me, and I suspect others. For those that find that it matters, they have your thread to discuss those salient points. So it's a win-win, really. The series is an adaptation. You have no understanding of what an adaptation is apparently, and that it's free to divert from the source material. Frank and Bill certainly had an impact on story told in the series itself, and on both Joel and Ellie and their view of relationships. This wasn't a comment directed at me necessarily, but I'll say that the only thing being "censored" is the desire to keep spoilers from the video game out of this thread. There are plenty of spoiler-free threads on various topics on this board and many others. You are also free to discuss those video game vs. series points in the other thread, the one you created. So it's impossible that you are being censored, since you are free to post whatever your heart desires in that thread. Thanks for the opportunity to help clarify (again) what the intent of this thread has been.
To me, the show has given every indication that whatever's in Salt Lake is a long shot because everything else they've encountered was a longshot to survive. From what I saw, the showrunners wanted us to believe that the cure was in Ellie's blood, because blood was mentioned several times. For Joel, and the audience, wasn't it a shock when we learned that they had to remove Ellie's brain? Wasn't it a jolt when Joel saw that rat ass hospital? Joel became attached to Ellie long before they reached Salt Lake (the pivotal moment was when Joel laughed at Ellie's pun), so I don't think Joel was thinking that Ellie would die in Salt Lake, otherwise, he would have done something else before they arrived, told another lie or whatever. I was expecting to see something like the CDC from The Walking Dead, but nope; it was a bung hole. No, Marlene knew the haps from the get, and she played Joel and Ellie. Sure, she played them for humanitarian reasons, in a skewed post-apocalypse way, but I think Joel saw that it was a cock-up, once we woke up cold-cocked at the hands of his "friends." To me, the premise is that there is nothing as it seems, paranoia is your friend, and if you don't want to put a bullet in your brain, you've got to be agile to survive. Joel agilely wasted the Fireflies.
Just got done watching it. Joel is the hero. The Fireflies plan was severely flawed. Many points already cited in the last several posts. You don't kill someone to "Maybe" find a cure. Their plan was way too risky.
But isn't "maybe" worth it to possibly save all of humanity? (not saying that I wanted Ellie to die of course or what they did was totally ethical) I mean, Joel may have possibly doomed humanity just for his own selfish purposes. I don't consider that being a hero...
Was anyone else surprised by the intelligence of the zombie hunting Ellie's mom? It seemed to know she was in the house and even which room she was in.
The story gave no indication anywhere in the story that the plan was flawed. Therefore, as an audience, was must presume that it had a high likelihood of success. Just one line from Marlene such as "it might be a long shot but it's our only shot" or something like that changes things entirely. But that was never said, and so we must presume that in the universe of the show, it had a high likelihood of success. Therefore, Joel absolutely is a completely vile, despicable person, as is anybody who could possibly be so violently selfish. She's the key to the survival of the world? I'd have cut her head open myself. And, based on how her character had been developed, she probably would have volunteered anyway.
The staff and hospital with power were just waiting on the off chance Ellie found out they had moved to SLC. Okay.
Yeah. But I let that one go. They haven't really spent a lot of time developing the capabilities of the fungal zombies. I would have to think that if the brain is, over a year or more, being replaced by a fungal growth, that such dexterity and cognition would have long since become impossible and that all they do now is sense, chase and bite (but could be easily eluded by things like stairs, twists/turns, doors, etc.). But whatever, it's a zombie show.
My thought was who cares about a possible cure? The "zombies", at least as shown throughout the show are not nearly as dangerous, as most of the humans post apocalypse. Aside from a couple of run-ins they had with the "zombies", it sure seems the bigger risk is running into people. Maybe that's one of the points of the show? Also, I can imagine Joel thinking the same thing - why this fantasy of a cure? I'll save Ellie - she's at least worth it, not these insane humans left in the world. It's a no-brainer decision for any father too. Kill my daughter for a chance of a cure? Hell no, eat lead...
I'm leaning towards this too. In the world of this show, humanity is now 20 years deep into finding ways of living with cordyceps (with varying levels of civility/barbarity). The damage, by and large, is done. We’re asked if it’s OK to kill one person to save humanity from the infected, but the infected aren’t what’s wrong, humanity is. Time and again Joel & Ellie have encountered humanity, and found nothing worth saving. Bill wrote it in his letter: humanity isn't worth worth the sacrifice. But some humans are. I'd save the girl and leave humanity to sort itself out too.
Can't they smell humans or something... I don't know. I'm fast losing interest in this show the same way I lost interest in The Walking Dead. Maybe zombies are really best left for the feature film format?
I was also thinking about how they were generating electricity in that hospital. Getting some generators running to power a building that size isn't a small undertaking. Traveling from Denver to SLC isn't a minor trip in a post apocalyptic world, even if your traveling in the summer. Twenty years of winters would do a number on Interstate 70 in the Rockies. If I was living in a post apocalyptic world I'd journey south.. it's just too difficult to get what you need in the winter time or at high altitude.
