Taming cartridge brightness

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by davey_d, May 17, 2023.

  1. davey_d

    davey_d Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    THE EQUIPMENT:

    Pro-Ject X2 table
    Sumiko Amethyst cartridge
    Pro-Ject Phono Box S2 phono stage
    Marantz PM7005

    THE SITUATION:

    Simply put: I am experiencing a great deal of shrillness and exaggerated treble in my setup. This is surprising to me as review after review of the Amethyst describes it as warm and smooth. I'm experiencing spitty, harsh highs, most notably on hi hats, rides and sibilant vocals. I love the sound of the cartridge otherwise and it sounds totally excellent across the rest of the frequency range. But the high treble exaggeration is a real bummer.

    I've ruled out speaker placement/room stuff as doing an A/B with streaming audio (Qobuz, Apple Music) sounds completely correct... and my turntable is definitely much, much brighter sounding. This is across dozens of records in every genre and every quality of pressing imaginable.

    I seem to have everything set to Sumiko's specs... input impedance at 47k, combined capacitance (tonearm+cable+phono stage) is around 160pF (recommended:100pF-200pF), VTF at 2.2g, VTA slightly tail down.

    I know that this topic has been covered here and there across this forum, but I've searched high and low and tried a whole lot of solutions to no avail. So, if anybody has some advice for me here, I'd be very grateful.

    THINGS I HAVE TRIED:

    - Quadruple-checking my alignment/overhang with protractor (cartridge seems to track more or less perfectly)

    - Adjusting VTA (does not seem to have an effect)

    - Adjusting VTF (played around with 1.7g-2.3g, and though the sonic character does change, these harsh highs are always present)

    - Switching to low capacitance cable (initially used the Pro-Ject Connect It E, which is 130pF, now using .5 meter Blue Jeans LC-1, capacitance should be around 25pF now)

    - switching between the external Pro Jet phono stage and the internal phono stage in the Marantz

    - increasing capacitance on phono stage to 220pF all the way up to 400pF (counterintuitive, but thought it was worth a try)

    Thank you!
     
  2. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Y adaptors with loading plugs may have some effect.
     
  3. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    That cartridge shouldn't be "bright". Lowbeats tested it, see below. Their load is 210pf total + 47K.

    Alle 6 neuen Sumiko Tonabnehmer im Vergleich - LowBeats

    I don't see any excessive peaking there. In fact it looks like there is a bit of a dip in the response.

    What I would want to do in your situation is measure the frequency response from the phono stage output and see what the FR is there. If it looks okay, then your issue is something else downstream or the records you are playing.
     
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Another thing: I can't keep track of all the PJ phonos. Is this one of those models with the little dip switches on the bottom? If so, it is very easy to set those wrong by accident.
     
  5. davey_d

    davey_d Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Thank you.

    Yes, it's the one with the dip switches on the bottom. They are definitely set correctly (and I've tried every single possible combo of them, just to throw stuff at the wall).

    And it's not the records I'm playing - I've tested dozens if not hundreds, and it occurs on every single recording, from the nicest Kevin Gray cut Miles Davis LP to original Bowie pressings in NM condition to Boards of Canada. :)

    I do have a Hi Fi News test record on the way and I'm going to test frequency response as soon as it shows up. But apart from that, I'm really at a loss.
     
  6. violarules

    violarules Senior Member

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    I think it's gotta be the cartridge, then. Order one of the <$100 AT models from Amazon and give it a try.
     
  7. lsipes1965

    lsipes1965 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ky
    Or better yet….a Grado Black3 which is definitely not “spitty” :)
     
    BrentB, Joshua Tree and HiFi Guy like this.
  8. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Has the issues always occurred with this setup or it's something new? If the latter, when did it start and was anything done to trigger the problem (moving components around, etc).
     
  9. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    I agree with volatiles.
    Got to be stylus fault?
     
  10. davey_d

    davey_d Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I purchased the table, the cartridge, and the integrated amp all at the same time, and the treble issue was apparent from the get go.
     
    Strat-Mangler likes this.
  11. Old Grey Grump

    Old Grey Grump Well-Known Member

    Location:
    UK
    I agree with Isipes1965, it's worth the (relatively modest) outlay to try a cheaper Grado cartridge
     
  12. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    1. Were they new?
    2. Who set it up, initially?
    3. Are you using the 18-volt power supply cable that came with the phono preamp?
    4. Have you tried engaging Analog Mode on your amp to see if that helps?

    Frankly, if you're experiencing the same issue when using the dedicated phono preamp *and* the internal one from the Marantz, streaming sounds perfectly fine, and your tried adjusting everything possible with no success, it's the cart. System synergy is a very real thing... for good or ill.

    Cursory research shows some have complained about Sumiko carts being very bright. Pro-Ject themselves recommend the Ortofon 2M series. If you want to try a cheaper one to confirm that it fixes all your SQ issues, get the 2M Blue which is roughly $200. The Bronze is the sweet spot in the series. The sound signature of the Blue is *warm*. I can tell you that from experience. It tracks well, too.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2023
  13. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    [​IMG]

    It shouldnt be the cart, the response is pretty neutral.
    My guess is the pre amp is doing something weird but you tried the other one too. Quite mystifying.
    Maybe the cart is faulty?
     
    lsipes1965 likes this.
  14. davey_d

    davey_d Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    1. yep, all new except the amp
    2. set up at the shop
    3. yep!
    4. I have! The overall sound is subtly better, but highs still there.

    It does seem that I need to just bite the bullet and try out another cartridge to rule out anything else. But as others have said, mystifying!
     
  15. davey_d

    davey_d Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Yeah, that's why I'm so confused, this cart should NOT be sounding this way. That's why I'm seeing if this makes sense to anybody on here!

    Thanks for the replies all, I'll see about sticking something else on the table and report back.
     
    Leonthepro likes this.
  16. chris geary

    chris geary Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hopewell NJ, USA
    I am surprised that changing the VTA did not make a difference. Something is weird, could just be a defective cartridge.
     
  17. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    VTA barely makes any audible difference so no surprise there.
     
  18. utahusker

    utahusker Senior Member

    Really, not in my experience.
     
  19. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
  20. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I agree- I’ve the same experience as you. I’ve experimented a lot with the VTA setting on my SME IV tonearm. It’s very easy to adjust even on the fly and yes there have been audible differences during testing.
     
    utahusker and Strat-Mangler like this.
  21. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Yep. Through multiple turntables, the difference was huge and undeniable. A link won't change how ridiculously obvious it was.
     
  22. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Should be easy to demonstrate if its huge then. Ill be waiting.
     
  23. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I used to follow that guy over the internet around 20 yrs ago, I basically read all he wrote and I’m not sure if I would see him as ”that scientific guy”. I clearly remember he wasn’t always right about everything in his articles.

    I agree. I haven’t seen any articles or tests with similar conclusions.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2023
  24. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    I have to chuckle at the idea that you somehow believe I care what you think. Demonstrating strong opinions based on inexperience is your MO. You then challenge anyone who says different, regardless of their actual first-hand experience (of which you have little to none) to prove you wrong. It's always the same show. I'll have to yawn and tell you to use those things on each side of your head called ears once in a while. You'll appear wiser which would be a welcomed change. :)
     
    Jim0830 and Eigenvector like this.
  25. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    First-hand experience is hard to beat and especially in this case. The audible differences when the tonearm is ”tail up” or ”tail down” are very clear. If one has never experimented with this with ones own hands and ears one should be careful to make any claims about this subject.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2023
    Strat-Mangler likes this.

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