Digital reverb on BEACH BOYS "Pet Sounds" Box Set. Yes or No?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by flashdaily, Jan 21, 2009.

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  1. flashdaily

    flashdaily Active Member Thread Starter

    I had not listened to, or even owned, the Pet Sounds Box Set, or even the stereo remix, for years until recently, and now I can clearly hear that added reverb that has been spoken of on this forum. Why in the world was that added? By it's very nature, the stereo remix is a creation of modern technology and not a genuine vintage mix, but by adding that digital reverb it just makes it sound even more "computerized" and less natural. Was that the intention, to give it an "artificial" sound lest any be tempted to give it pre-eminence over the original mono mix? Or did someone actually think it would sound better that way?
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Digital reverb is really neat. You can carry it around in a little box and put it on all kinds of music. It should be used to make all those old out-of-date recordings from the past sound modern. It sounds better than any old analog echo chamber. After all, it's digital. I hope they will use it on every old record ever made. Bring them into the 21st century. That old junk really needs it.
     
  3. waynenet

    waynenet New Member

    Location:
    Earth
    I don't mind some of it, but even (I suspect) the Beatles Yellow Sub Songtrack and Love albums have what I hear to be digital reverb.
     
  4. Mike Dow

    Mike Dow I kind of like the music

    Location:
    Bangor, Maine
    The reverb on some of the Pet Sounds sessions does have a definite digital sound. I would rather hear the tapes dry than have a layer of digital reverb added during the mixing process.

    Before The Doors "Perception" box was issued, I was concerned that the new 5.1 mixes would suffer from digital reverb and was pleased when I discovered that Bruce Botnick used EMT plates during the mix. The more I know about Bruce, the more I like him.

    That made me laugh...thanks. :laugh:
     
  5. It's impossible to sync 2 different analog recordings from different source tapes properly without using modern digital technology. So it's either a modern digital technology Pet Sounds stereo mix or no Pet Sounds stereo mix at all. It's as simple as that. I'm glad we at least have it in stereo, but then that's just my opinion.

    Anyway, in most cases digital reverb is indeed unnecassary and unwanted. It always takes away some of the details and warmth of a recording. Also, I've heard very few officially recordings that actually need a bit more reverb. Sure, it makes some of those horrible flat, dry bootleg recordings somewhat more listenable. But official releases don't need it.
     
  6. varispeed

    varispeed what if?

    Location:
    Los Angeles Ca
    .........."Digital reverb is really neat. You can carry it around in a little box and put it on all kinds of music....."

    Hahahaha ... I don't personally mind the sound of digital reverb or remixes or any of that kind of new treatment of old stuff. Adds to the choice palette of things to listen to.

    Plus, check it out, for all the purists ... this makes for a great concept for the 50th or 60th anniversary editions. The marketing hype will be "hey, we dumped all those horrible things that were done to the 40th anniversary and now we've REALLY got some great stuff for you in the 70th anniversary box set.

    Evergreen sales for this baby. Although I'm not too sure who's gonna be alive to buy it.
     
  7. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member

    I thought that the reverb on "Pet Sounds" was from a vintage plate unit?
     
  8. king of anglia

    king of anglia New Member

    Location:
    Nottingham
    Digital reverb has come a long way since the first stereo Pet Sounds mix. Convolution reverbs are simply amazing, not just in quality but also in the vast assortment of uses it has.

    I think the stereo mix of Pet Sounds is pretty superb considering the era it was done. The actual mix sounds great, not gimmicky or too false. The mastering sounds good on the version I have.

    I'd be interested to know exactly what Steve would have done using the available tools.
     
  9. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    I did too. :shrug:

    Do you think perception has anything to do with a vintage EMT plate being mistaken for a digital reverb? :D
     
  10. I'm listening right now to the Pet Sounds stereo mix from the boxed set. I hadn't noticed any digital reverb before and even now I'm listening again I really can't find a lot of digital reverb. The reverb on the "You still believe in me" vocal sounds pretty close to the original reverb used in the mono mix to me, not digital at all. Drums have a nice, warm sound. Vocals and strings sound very natural to me. All very smooth and enjoyable, not digital or fake at all. I guess the vintage EMT plate is indeed being mistaken for digital reverb.
     
  11. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    In addition to the EMT plate Brian also has a live chamber in his studio... so yeah, I'd say real reverb was used.

    I have two EMT plates at my studio and they sound wonderful (and just a slight pain in the ****) but I also have some reverb programs that are so spot on I challenge anyone to tell me which one is the plug-in.
     
  12. Greatest Hits

    Greatest Hits Just Another Compilation

    Brian? It was Mark Linett who remixed Pet Sounds and judging by the size of his home studio, I don't think he has a chamber, unless I missed something.


    When asked in the past on other forums and through email he has stated that a lot of reverb was in fact printed on the tape itself.

    It's possible that Mark simply augmented the original tape reverb with some reverb plug-ins to help more with the stereo imaging.
    Since the multi-track was never meant for stereo in the first place, the lumping and organization of the music on the tracks presented some problems as far as panning goes.
     
  13. Jamie Tate

    Jamie Tate New Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Brian isn't an engineer. Mark did it.

    The chamber and EMT plate would be in another room (the chamber being a room in itself).
     
  14. Mike Dow

    Mike Dow I kind of like the music

    Location:
    Bangor, Maine
    I'm sure this has been posted at some point. This article and interview with Mark Linett has some fascinating information about remixing Pet Sounds for stereo and 5.1.
    He doesn't go into detail about the type of reverb used but there is some great information here. The guy certainly has a fun job!

    http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_pet_sounds_surround/
     
  15. Greatest Hits

    Greatest Hits Just Another Compilation

    The YOUR PLACE OR MINE website has no mention of an echo chamber....

    http://www.ypomr.com/
     
  16. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    Hi Jamie,

    What EMT plates do you have?

    Keeping those plates tensioned was a royal pain. You have to use those strange little clips that like to break if you get them too tight.

    At Dawnbreaker we had both 140's with the tube electronics and 240's. Nothing sounds quite like them and I preferred the 140. The Ecoplate was fairly decent but sounded different to me.

    Btw, we also had an early 250 which was quite interesting and around $10k which was a lot for reverb in those days. That thing was bizarre looking. Using it, I felt like I was piloting a space ship.
     
  17. plickfu

    plickfu Active Member

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I think the stereo remix of Pet Sounds is just fine. I just prefer the mono (it sounds 'right' to me), but I have no complaints with the stereo mix. But to me, all of the other Beach Boys stuff that has been remixed to stereo sounds pretty bad, especially the stuff on the Warmth of the Sun comp.
     
  18. flashdaily

    flashdaily Active Member Thread Starter

    I hear a lot of reverb on the vocals that I don't hear at all on the mono mix. I just get the feeling that, if Brian had mixed Pet Sounds in stereo in 1966, it wouldn't have sounded like that. In fact, I don't recall any stereo records from that era sounding like that. It's not a bad job, perhaps the best that could have been done, it is indeed smooth and enjoyable. But to me it does have a "fake" sound to it, it sounds like what it is: a creation of modern technology, cobbled together in a way that was never originally intended, or even possible in 1966. The first stereo remixes of "California Girls" and "Kiss Me Baby" were, IMO, very well done, they sound to me as if they could have been mixed that way originally. But the reverb on the stereo Pet Sounds, whatever its cause might have been, spoils it for me somewhat. Pet Sounds was sort of a "quiet" record, and that reverb gives it kind of a spacey sound.
     
  19. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Searching For Simplicity

    Location:
    Midwest
    I like the stereo mix of Pet Sounds and Brian approved so what can ya do? :) It's not a better way to listen to the album, just a different way. Nothing beats the 1966 mono mix of course.

    The stereo remixes of "California Girls" and "Kiss Me Baby" were not done by Mark Linett though. That work was done by Andrew Sandoval IIRC.
     
  20. stephenlee

    stephenlee Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    Well, not quite. That's true only if your definition of "stereo" has to include separation of instruments as well as vocals. The final 4- and 8-track masters for the Pet Sounds songs had all the instruments mixed to a single track, with the vocals then spread over the remaining tracks. So it would have been possible to non-digitally mix a version of Pet Sounds that featured separated vocals atop a mono instrumental track. In my book, that would be more than acceptable as "stereo."
     
  21. Mike Dow

    Mike Dow I kind of like the music

    Location:
    Bangor, Maine
    I like Pet Sounds in mono, stereo and 5.1 (well, at least 4.1 ;)) and am grateful that I have so many different options when I want to hear one of my favorite albums.

    Some tracks sound like they might have been mixed with digital reverb, some don't. With the right gear and some good ears, digital reverb can sound great, IMO. And then, you have the Yes "Fragile" 5.1 mix from DVD-A. Oy...a shrill, icy, echoey, tongue stuck on a flagpole mess.

    Whether or not the Pet Sounds Sessions box was mixed with digital reverb, I still love it and nearly 12 years later, am kind of amazed that it was actually released. It's obvious that a lot of TLC went into that set (not to mention the internal politics of finally getting it out) and it is a wonderful document.
     
  22. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing

    I just bought a Yazoo Mississippi John Hurt CD and every song is treated to some stereo reverb that sure as hell wasn't there in 1928 :sigh:

    That'll teach me for buying one of their CDs from 1990...
     
  23. Greatest Hits

    Greatest Hits Just Another Compilation

    My only problem with the stereo mix is the fact that it's missing certain elements. Also, certain aspects that were highlighted in the mono mix are considerably buried in the stereo mix (the bass vocal on "I'm Waiting For The Day" for example). Granted, this was probably done to provide a better stereo balance, it's still reason enough for me to listen to the warts and all mono version (complete with bleed-through).
     
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  24. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Searching For Simplicity

    Location:
    Midwest
    Tue, but imagine the "fun" in synchronizing all of those tapes :love:
     
  25. Greatest Hits

    Greatest Hits Just Another Compilation

    There was, in fact, several Pet Sounds tracks remixed for the "An American Band" documentary. Although, many of the tracks were drenched in reverb and only contained half of the double tracked vocals, the process used to remix these tracks was the one you described.

    I think I may have even heard sync-up jobs done using these tracks and the original mono mixes panned hard left and right to create a unique stereo mix.
     
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