Steve's Analogue Productions Blue Note SACD/CD Sound Quality Discussion Thread

I see. No, they don't have them listed yet, but I'm sure they will appear over the next few weeks. The earlier ones also didn't appear on their site until a few weeks after they had been released.

Good luck with your search

 

The fact that some things were the same, including the recording engineer, still doesn't mean that the tonality is the same. Like ATR said above there were also many differences between Blue Note and Prestige, which makes for the different tonality. It's no use comparing these two labels.

 

Well expressed, Rocky. I'm with you 100%.

 

Fair enough.

 

Actually you said:

I do value your opinion on these, as well as Lee's. So, I'm glad to hear they sound good to you and that you shared that. Thanks.

 

Well, then maybe this audiophile forum isn't for you: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2238323&postcount=14

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

I'm just catching up with this thread. For what it's worth:

I continue to strongly suspect that the differences people are saying they hear between the vinyl and SACD versions of these titles are due to differences in their digital versus analog playback systems, NOT "real" differences in the recordings themselves. This is WAY more likely than conspiracy theories about someone tampering with Steve's SACDs after the fact, without his knowledge. I know that type of tampering has happened before with some of his work but that was for non-audiophile labels and done by people not well known to Steve (as I understand it).

By contrast, he's worked with Analogue Productions now for a while and I really doubt someone there would screw with his work without telling him. Just not plausible.

Here's the thing: I highly and very seriously doubt most people have set up their vinyl rigs for maximum neutrality. Many people are running pleasing sounding but ultimately highly colored MC carts, and even for those folks running more neutral sounding carts, many people load them up quite a bit to increase "air" and dynamics, etc. All those things have a significant impact on tonality and dynamics - so the vinyl gets labeled a having pristine highs and incredible dynamics - because that's what peoples' playback rigs are giving them (in effect boosting the high end and exaggerating the dynamics) - while the SACD ends up getting labeled as dull/lacking dynamics when in fact it is very much more likely to reflect the "true" sound of the tapes - since the digital players are generally neutral (not to say different digital players don't sound different but the differences among them are generally a lot more subtle than the difference between vinyl and digital).

I'll say what I said earlier - I have a vinyl rig that I have strived to set up to be as neutral as possible. The MC cart I run is pretty darn neutral to begin with and I use a loading that is aimed at keeping it neutral rather than adding "air" etc; my table doesn't impart a lot of color to the sound; I set VTA against the SACDs of the same titles to further ensure neutrality.

Doing all those things I find the LP and SACD sound very, very close - vinyl gets the nod because I just prefer the sound of analog but the tonality is very similar and certainly my SACDs aren't lacking in any department. In fact in some aspects (like high end) the SACDs have a slight edge; they just lack a little of the magic midrange that great vinyl can impart. These SACDs sound like typically excellent Steve Hoffman mastering jobs.

I can't figure out any other plausible explanation for the wildly varying opinions here except for what I outline above.

 

Three other people have heard the hum:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4461373&postcount=164

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4461442&postcount=174

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=4461499&postcount=178

To make sure it's not my system I placed the SACD in my iMac and ripped the CD layer and listened on my iPod. Hum is still there.

Again, I only have Blue Train and Moanin. They sound wonderful. The best I have ever heard these titles in digital format. But there is some sort of very low level hum that is noticeable during quiet passages on headphones -- especially noticeable during the "silence" between songs. Sounds like the signal was run through a tube piece of gear during the mastering process -- like a tube EQ or something and we are hearing low level hum generated from the device.

 

BTW, if the Lp and SACD were a split feed, how was the CD layer generated? Was it a downsample from the DSD? Or was the CD layer another direct "live" feed?

 

The hum would not be good I assume if it's not on the original recording.

 

These Blue Train title track clips might be of interest to some. Trane solo handing over to Lee Morgan

They are recorded with Audacity at 96Kh/32 float and saved as WAV 32 float

AP SACD: Sony XA9000ES to tube headphone amp to PC sound card
AP 45 rpm lp Alphason tt/Denon DL 304 to phono pre to the same tube headphone amp and sound card

The phase on the SACD and LP data were opposed so I inverted the LP wav.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/5rwdsb
http://www.sendspace.com/file/mptfh4

 

Apologies - wrong files - I will repost

 

here then - note that there is a slight fidelity loss especially in the highs, thru the sound card

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8nydft
http://www.sendspace.com/file/nr5v8j

 

I listened to both clips, and I have to say that they sound virtually identical. They do have some slight differences (which may be attributable to the signal chain in the ND), but there is certainly no difference in dynamics. And no hum that I can hear in that clip.

 

I am sorry to say that when I downloaded both of these files, burned them to a disc and played them back, there was no noticeable difference between them. Of course this is to be expected, they both went through the same circuitry on my computer and through the same DAC on my home playback system, so what ever difference there may have been at one point in the origin of these two files cease to exist by the time they reached their final analouge stage in the whole series of complex events. It does prove one thing though, they both ended up sounding the same.

 

The other thing I forgot to mention in my last post was that volume matching is CRITICAL in comparing these recordings. The SACDs I must say are mastered at lower volume than I'd prefer - I don't want overly loud but these are definitely on the quiet side, like very old CD masterings which isn't necessarily a good thing - so you have to goose the volume to get the dynamics. When I do that - and when the volume level is matched precisely with the LP playback volume (my C2300 preamp allows me to independently adjust the volume from different playback sources and, more significantly, remembers the volume level for each - facilitating rapid back and forth comparisons between SACD and LP at equal volume) - the SACD and LP sound nearly identical. I just do not hear any substantive difference other than the inherently different character of vinyl and digital - tonality, dynamics, etc are frighteningly similar.

I won't even go so far as to argue with LeeS about futzing - OK, let's assume maybe the insider source is reliable and they did some type of monkeying with Steve's master after the fact (not at all likely to me, but OK, who knows, maybe, I'm not an insider myself). The fact is, even if that did happen, fortunately, I don't hear any differences or noticeable artifacts as a result. I'm not even saying differences couldn't be there, but on a very fine system and with what I think are pretty keen ears, I don't hear a problem. So the proof for me is in the listening!

 

Exactly. Let us assume for a second that LeeS's source is correct and there was some post-mastering futzing with the SACDs, this did not produce a discernable sonic difference between the 45's and the SACDs that is componet independent.

 

I agree, I did two things when listening. I matched the volume on both tracks, and I undid the inverting of the LP wave form that the poster had done (just to avoid any change in sound quality that might have caused).

 

I don't think posting clips is a clean demonstration of sound differences. First, you are converting DSD to PCM for the wav creation; Second, PC playback differs for each person.

 

Look at it this way...one wants to compare playback on SACD versus LP. These clips convert the LP to PCM and the SACD to PCM.

Therefore, you have two conversions away from a clean comparison and the 24/192 is likely to essentially smoothing in a similar fashion both sources into 24/192, let alone what one feels about 24/192 being less than LP quality. That will definitely, unless you are using a superfine soundcard, a more similar sound.

In any event, I am perfectly fine with different viewpoints. I just wanted to express my opinion based on some careful listening I did. I wish I had not been so matter of fact in my language earlier on this.

 

It's not ideal, but if the LP and and the SACD Hybrid sounded very different the clips would have sounded different. No amount of coloring by the sound card would make them sound similar; let alone identical.

 

Agreed.

And anyway my own comparisons (as noted in my prior post) were based on listening to the actual LP and SACD in my reference system, with exact volume matching, not based on the file comparisons posted here. I didn't even listen to the digital files posted here, no need to - I've already compared under the best conditions possible for me.

 

Unless the hum on the SACDs were an artifact of the alleged post mastering futzing.

Is the hum on the vinyl versions?

 

Agreed - but I think..they show similarities

What one hears playing back the vinyl without the (digital chain) is a very similar source on a superior playback medium - these 45s are of such high quality that they nearly fade out of the equation when presenting the dynamic and tonal contrasts in the music. In my belief they just sound more natural than the SACD due to inherent limitations of that format.

I am not arguing about any futzing or doubting your sources, just that from what I have heard any differences other than those due to the format capabilities are minimal.

 

that would be the only significance of the hum - otherwise too low
If it were on the vinyl I would not be able to hear it through my playback chain