Steve's Analogue Productions Blue Note SACD/CD Sound Quality Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by jpm-boston, Jan 17, 2009.

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  1. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Steve, I believe the original poster was referring to Moanin'. That was the last title that was recorded in both stereo and mono. However, the RVG CD is in stereo AFAIK.
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Could be, I wasn't reading carefully, typical. Nonetheless, in Rudy's "stereo machine/mono machine" era, Rudy's combining of the stereo feed was just directed on to the mono machine before he stopped using it totally, so it is still not a unique mix. I mean, Rudy only had one console when he went stereo and when the feed went to the MONO tape machine it was still a 50/50 split of the stereo feed mix with an extra mono limiter on it...

    The only UNIQUE Rudy mono mix would be a mix he did before he started recording anything on his stereo machine. In other words, a dedicated mono Rudy mix is pre-stereo totally.

    Does this make sense at all?
     
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  3. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Correct - the reference is to Moanin' thanks.

    The 1998 remaster 1999 re-issue BN RVG USA CD that I have is in mono.
     
  4. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    What did you make of this 2004 allaboutjazz.com interview with RVG re: stereo/mono?

    http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=1116&pg=2
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    This RVG interview has been discussed here a zillion times. Let's do a search someone.
     
  6. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Listen again. I think this is one of the first RVG's to be released and it had its stereo image severely narrowed.
     
  7. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Do you have this one?
     
  8. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Steve and Kevin's 45RPM lp of Blue Train was a revelation to me as well. The player who stood out to me was Lee Morgan - just the bite of his trumpet on this version - wow. Like you said about Chambers' bass, Lee's trumpet really sounds like a real trumpet on this mastering.
     
  9. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    No, not this version. But it's clear from listening to the clips at Amazon that the stereo image has been narrowed until it's close to mono. But not so close that it sounds like the mono mix.

    Listen to Midnight Blue. It's the same situation.
     
  10. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    I do like that one too. Unfortunately I do not have the BN mono (4003) LP but I could get to one. Sometime in the future I will make a comparison. Thanks
     
  11. So do you mean that it probably won't even be released next Tuesday? I ordered it from here:
    http://www.cdpacific.com/CDitem.asp?ID=1753194
     
  12. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot


    Joe, maybe you can answer two questions regarding this stereo/mono discussion (I'm referring to LP's only):

    1.

    Listening to various BN reissues, there are some that leave the early ping/pong stereo sound as it is (Classic Records, partly MM, AP, but partly MM, AP has better middle fill) and some that generally create a better middle fill of the same recordings (OP's, Mosaic, Conaisseur series, the japanese).

    I experienced that the first mentioned are the better sounding Stereo reissues (except of leaving the ping-pong).

    Can the better middle fill only be achieved by adding an add. fold down through the board, that degrates the sound or is it sometimes a matter of taste why it's left as ping-pong?


    2.

    comparing mono (with a stereo cartridge) I experienced the following for a later BN issue, where the Mono is only a fold down of the Stereo issue:

    not regarding tonal or other sound quality issues, but only regarding the mono image...

    ...the mono original sounds different (it has the widest mono soundstage)
    than a stereo original with the mono button pressed, which sounds different
    than a Classic records mono issue, which sounds different
    than a Classic records Stereo issue with the mono button pressed which sounds different
    than a Music Matters Stereo issue with the mono button pressed.

    Do you know why especially the original pressings have such a much bigger middle fill than the reissues, which tend to image the mono signal nearly as a vertical line between the speakers?

    Can you tell, why althought being a fold down only, some BN mono issues sound different from their stereo issues even if both are played with the mono swich activated (i.e. the mono issue has higher output level, more bass)?
     
  13. Joe Harley

    Joe Harley Senior Member

    JH: Might be something related to your gear. Again, this is not my experience.>
     
  14. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    Joe, I give some clarification because I mixed up too much, which leads to misunderstanding...I also give the one or other example, which I think can't be dependent on gear...

    I don't hear soundstaging differences between MM and AP (this was a misunderstanding, there are no parallel isssues anyway) so I always speak of one and the same session listening to different issues of it.

    I also don't see a general lack of middle fill of AP and MM issues (drums and bass is in the middle most of the time anyway)

    What I hear is the following (take Hubbard/Here to stay as example):

    The MM issue has drums and horns quite directly in the speakers left/right and piano/bass in the middle. The japanese Toshiba issue (digital remastering of RonMcMaster grr..) has also piano/bass in the middle, but shows the drums and horns slightly aside from the speaker, more to the middle (far from mono tendency, still clealy left and right, but not directly in the speakers anymore). Not speaking of the superiority of the MM issue in general, the fact that the japanese issue shows the horns and drums a bit more between the speakers than more or less directly in the speaker, for my ears is a preferable soundstage. In my experience, at those recordings where horns/drums are left/right and piano/bass in the middle, also the RVG originals mostly show the horns not directly in the speakers but slightly more to the middle. Some time ago, when I asked Michael Cuscuna about this (I very much appreatiated his friendlyness), he wrote to me that RVG did this intentionally. He wrote the following (I hope it's ok to paste it here as I don't see anything critical in it)

    MC: "Rudy usually made his masters in 50/50 stereo (with nothing in the middle) so the same tape could be used for mono and stereo masters. His lathe would bring the sides in when cutting stereo lacquers. I have also done that on Mosaic and Blue note reissues. Classic tends to leave the left and right wide open as it is on the original tape. Rudy is now accepting that idea and all future RVG CDs will be wide open as well."


    So my question is: is the reason you leave it left/right, because it is only achievable with methods that degrade the sound or do you just like the horns directly in the speakers or do you just don't want to change what's on the master (as Classic Records)?


    Regarding the Mono discussion I mixed up too much, so let me clarify what I mean:

    Take Burrell/Midnight blue as example (because I like it so much, I have mono/stereo original, mono/stereo Classic Records and MM 45RPM Stereo of this issue. Crazy, I know :) )

    This issue, as to current knowledge, has a mono issue which should be a fold down only of the stereo tape. So when pressing the mono switch on both, they should sound the same. But they sound different. The mono issue is clearly louder than the Stereo original and any other reissue and has slightly more bass than the Stereo original. Why, if it's only a fold down?

    The other issue I experienced is, that sometimes mono issues (played in stereo mode) have a wider placing of the instruments in the middle, than if you play the same stereo recording and press the mono switch, which leads more or less to a pinpoint center image). As all this is said for playing with a stereo cartridge and I couldn't quickly find the issues I had in mind, we don't have to deepen this...might be too puzzling...

    ..but what would be very interesting for me is, how you would describe the difference of playing a mono record with a mono cartridge in comparison to playing it with a stereo cartridge? I never had a chance to compare this.
     
  15. Joe Harley

    Joe Harley Senior Member

     
  16. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    yes sure, my mistake, I swapped it and as I wrote further down I meant what you are saying (piano and bass in the middle, not drums and bass)...


    Thanks, this is exactly what I wanted to know, but was not sure, if positioning can be influenced without sound degrading effects and it confirms my experience: althought I personally prefer the "slightly more to the middle" positioning, the overall sound superiority of the SH issues clearly overbalances at the Blue Notes which are affected by the "ping-pong-stereo" effect with horns and drums positioned directly in the speakers.


    Yeah, it seems RVG (as Cuscuna or some other remastering engineers or producers, maybe including you :)) also didn't like how some stereo masters with their "in the speaker positioning" sounded, so it seems that's why he changed it on his "final product", the stereo record (I guess the discussed degrading sound effects that accompany it were only a minor issue among other degrading effects he had to use at the time).

    So if your sound quality on the MM issues is only possible with leaving positioning as on the mastertape (and not as intended by RVG for the stereo record), I still prefer yours as it has major other advantages. I have a very rough guess what you would have improved when mixing these original sessions now, so the answer is not necessary :)

    yes, we're through ;) Thanks a lot! :cheers:

    P.S.: before I wrote, I listened to the MM Parlan/Us three again and I guess I have to buy a second one to store at a safe place if my first one is worn or burned..it's so fantastic!
     
  17. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    Thanks much also for your info regarding mono cartridges. I always thought about it, if it makes sence for me for those originals or reissues which are only available as monos. The problem is, I wouldn't want to use an inferior arm than my first one and also no inferior cartridge because the I guess I wouldn't see a pure advantage in it when using worse gear for mono. This makes it a very expensive luxury.

    Additionally, as I nearly always prefer stereo (even if it's strong left/right) I don't see enough sence in investing a large amount in it. But great if one can afford a parallel top notch mono line like you. There are enough nice monos that I'd like to hear on a mono cartridge once, where only fake or worse stereos or non at all exist...

    For example I have the one or other Prestige silver/black deep groove original, but so far, the mono original was always clearly better...maybe the stereo prestige are all fake or whatever...

    If there's a good original stereo recording available, I'm always missing something at the monos in comparison, especially if they are folded stereos...some information seems to get lost when folded...
     
  18. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Sorry if this is repeated, I didn't see it in the previous 15 pages, but have you guys read the statement from Analogue Productions, "The Truth About Blue Note Monos"?

    I'll key in a few of the broad strokes below.

    So far I've heard the following BN AP SACDs: Blue Train, Leeway, Dexter Calling, Moanin, AT's Delight and Whistle Stop...they are each simply incredible.
     
  19. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    yes, this was the big official support for those who always wondered about the mono Blue Note hype :)

    But at least when different masters exist and then especially if you own a mono cartridge like Joe, I guess it's interesting to also listen to the monos, especially if you have pure left/right stereos without any middle fill as the only alternative. For me currenty the mono switch is sufficient for this purpose.

    But I made a lot of mono/stereo comparisons of various labels resulting mostly in superior stereo pressings. It seems to me that besides those issues that were only released as mono, there are only rare exceptions where mono got a different and better mastering. I'd be interested in examples of other listeners for this, maybe I'll start a thread...

    I personally have some examples where I at least kept the monos because the mastering is really different (not necessarily better/worse) or where sometimes there was even an add. track on the mono vs. stereo (i.e. Pepper Adams/10 to 4 at the 5 spot)...
     
  20. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Yes, I do love mono and I find it more realistic, holistic and deep in an absolute sense, as someone who has been to upteen hundred jazz concerts in small venues. But live listening and home listening are vastly different experiences so I'm willing to allow different features for each.

    I left out Capuchin Swing! I've also preordered Along Came John, Caddy for Daddy and Page One. I just hope AP gets around to issuing all of Wayne Shorter's stuff because that for me represents the pinnacle of Blue Note and my life just won't be complete until I hear SH/KG's remasters of that material. :)
     
  21. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Iirc, Music Matters decided not to do Speak No Evil, because they didn't feel the master tape was of high enough quality, or something like that. Juju is coming soon.
     
  22. Joe Harley

    Joe Harley Senior Member

    Just to be clear, I use a mono cartridge to play mono records. I use a stereo cartridge to play stereo records. I don't use a mono cartridge to play stereo records.
    cheers,

    Joe
     
  23. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    Surely not ... sorry if it seemed I thought you do that :shake:
     
  24. e630940

    e630940 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Rudy has indicated that the BN recordings at Hackensack were optimized for MONO even at the advent of STEREO when they ran the 2 track.
    quote from All About JAzz interview:

    AAJ: How did the invention of stereo effect your approach to recording jazz?

    RVG: That was a problem for everyone and not just me. There was no artistic rush to get into stereo from the people I worked for. They had to get into because they had to get into it. As a matter of fact, for quite awhile Alfred and others too had to be making...this is pretty important that you understand this. They had to make two products from the same session. They had to make a mono release in order to have anyone buy it and they had to make a stereo release to make that available to people who were buying stereo. And then of course when the stereo LP came in there was this question of compatibility. Who wants to buy two albums of the same music? You had to make both available and that became very difficult so what happened was everything that was made in Hackensack was mono. Even towards the very end when we were recording two-track we weren't listening in stereo. We were recording in two-track and we were listening in mono because there was only one speaker in Hackensack in the control room and only one speaker in the studio. So how could you listen in stereo when you only have one speaker? And all the judgments, Alfred's judgments, as to mix and balance, and mine too and the musicians too and how they sounded in relationship to each other, and all that during the creative part of those recordings was done in mono. It couldn't be any other way. Towards the end we were running two-track sessions but no one had ever listened to them. So there was no particular attention or attempt at creating a stereo field at that time.
     
  25. blue

    blue Mastering rules

    Location:
    sweet spot
    Yes, I heard of this statement before...but independent if no special care was taken to the placement within the stereo soundstage, (to me) it seems that anyway some more ambience was captured in stereo that's gone with mono...furtheron I don't see any advantage of a folded mono except maybe if the stereo issue is totally left/right separated...
     
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