Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: Katy Lied

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mdekoning, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

  2. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    I have these two. Call me crazy but I think the Roger Nichols #5 is better than the Hoffman #3. It is more alive with better vocal clarity. #3 sounds dull compared to it.

    Anyone else?
     
    enfield likes this.
  3. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

    That's the same mastering as the Citizen boxed set. Somebody mentioned this in another thread and comparing the peak levels confirms that. All the tracks (except for 7, 9 & 10 which have the exact same peak levels) are just 11% louder. I must say I disagree though, I'd give both Steve's and the 1999 remaster the edge over the Citizen version.
     
  4. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    Weird. So the boxed set remaster just used the old 1984 Katy Lied mastering?
     
  5. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

    No. A 1991 or 1992 Roger Nichols remastering, done for MCA to replace the inferior CDs made from wrong analogue masters meant for vinyl. Those got catalogue numbers starting with 31XXX. I remember Donald Fagen mentioning in an interview with a Dutch music magazine that the Citizen/Then & Now remastering had been done several years earlier.
     
  6. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    So was the first ever Katy Lied cd this crappy one with the wrong vinyl masters?
     
  7. Vader67

    Vader67 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Mastering 3

    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix: MCD01800 50169153 01 / MADE IN GERMANY

    [no 'Sonopress'!]
     
  8. Dave W S

    Dave W S New Member

    Now I'm confused. I have MCD 31194 , which looks very similar to the supposed SH mastering #3.

    Strange how these level-shifted discs (assuming they are) aren't level-shifted exactly the same amount from song to song (of the songs that can be compared; i.e. less than 100%). Or maybe that's not strange, I'm not sure how this level shifting occurred.
     
  9. My "mastering 5" CD is a MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back). That should clear up the two ?? in the above quote.

    From my null tests, I would suggest a notation of something like "same digital source as mastering 2" for mastering 5. The null tests showed that they're either digitally identical or off by 0.1 dB, depending on which disc of the Citizen boxed set the track falls.
     
  10. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

    Another update:

    Mastering 1:
    98.4/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8

    MCA Remaster 1999 MCD-11916 / Matrix: MCD-11916 00088 111 916-2 01 (Made in Germany by Universal M&L)

    Mastering 2:
    84.5/93.9/93.8/85.1/87.5/97.0/96.1/87.5/90.9/94.5

    MCA Citizen boxed set MCAD 4-10981 / Matrix: MCAD 4109812 Y1D3A MFD BY JVC

    Mastering 3 (Steve Hoffman's version):
    100.0/100.0/94.1/100.0/100.0/100.0/79.2/92.3/89.2/100.0

    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix:SONOPRESS I-5630 / MCD01800 A, DS2, IFPI 0764
    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix: SONOPRESS I-5630 / MCD01800 A IFPI L022 DS2
    MCA Japan for USA MCAD-37043 DIDX 373 (full artwork) / Matrix: MCAD-37043-U2E14
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) / Matrix: MCAD-37043-A4E
    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) / Matrix: MCD01800 50169153 01 MADE IN GERMANY

    Mastering 4 (Steve Hoffman's master, turned down a bit??):
    97.7/97.7/92.0/97.7/97.7/97.7/77.4/90.2/87.2/97.7

    MCA Switzerland 250 494-2 MCAD-37043 / Matrix: W 250494-2 1124 477 1 *

    Mastering 5 (same source tape as mastering 2):
    85.5/95.0/94.9/86.1/88.5/98.1/96.1/88.5/90.9/94.5

    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) Mfd for BMG (D100406) / Matrix: IFPI L239 D100406 1J11
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) / Matrix: MCAD-31194-1 1C MFD BY JVC

    Mastering 6 (another level adjusted Steve master?):
    100/99.9/93.2/100/100/100/78.1/90.9/88.7/99.8

    MCA USA MCAD 31194 DIDY-373 / Matrix: DIDX-000373 3
     
  11. mhw58

    mhw58 Forum Resident

    I have a Katy Lied that says on the hub:
    MFG by UNI MCAD 31194 A50905CG. It has fill artwork on the back and the MCAD-31194 on the side of the cd. Anyone have this version and know which mastering it is? Sounds great to me.
    Mike
     
  12. Dave W S

    Dave W S New Member

    Can you post the EAC?
     
  13. mhw58

    mhw58 Forum Resident

    Dave,
    Sorry but I don't know how to do that. Can someone tell me how to post the EAC?
    Thanks, Mike
     
  14. rob macd

    rob macd The sunshine bores the daylights out of me

    Location:
    boston ma
    I Have this one also
    I think this is from late 1990's
     
  15. Gardo

    Gardo Audio Epistemologist

    Location:
    Virginia
    My older copy:

    85.5/95.0/94.9/86.1/88.5/98.1/96.1/88.5/90.9/94.5 MFD JVC
    Matrix MCAD-31194-1 1C (12 scratched in after? hard to read)
    So this is mastering 5, same as mastering 2. Tell me if I have this right, then: this is a remastering done by Roger Nichols in the early 90's and reused for the Citizen Box, even though that box has a mastering credit of Glenn Meadows. Is that correct? If that's right, I'll dump this copy, as I don't need duplicate masterings, and the one I really want is Steve's.

    My remastered copy (most recent mastering, I believe):
    93.9/94.3/94.3/94.2/94.3/94.3/94.3/94.2/94.2/94.2 MFG BY UNIVERSAL
    Matrix MCAD1191603066713137
     
  16. Dave W S

    Dave W S New Member

    Oh, sorry, that's okay. But If you really want to know, download and install Exact Audio Copy, put your disc in, select the drive, select all the tracks and I think the F8 key tests the tracks and gives a report when it is done of the levels.
     
  17. mhw58

    mhw58 Forum Resident


    Thanks, I always wanted to know how to do it. I downloaded the program and here are the results of my Katy Lied:

    Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 4 from 23. January 2008

    EAC extraction logfile from 1. November 2008, 17:27

    Unknown Artist / Unknown Title

    Used drive : TSSTcorpCDDVDW TS-L632N Adapter: 1 ID: 0

    Read mode : Burst

    Read offset correction : 6
    Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
    Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
    Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
    Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
    Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000
    Gap handling : Not detected, thus appended to previous track

    Performing a test extraction only


    TOC of the extracted CD

    Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1 | 0:00.00 | 3:41.27 | 0 | 16601
    2 | 3:41.27 | 3:19.68 | 16602 | 31594
    3 | 7:01.20 | 3:05.44 | 31595 | 45513
    4 | 10:06.64 | 3:15.48 | 45514 | 60186
    5 | 13:22.37 | 3:57.00 | 60187 | 77961
    6 | 17:19.37 | 3:44.50 | 77962 | 94811
    7 | 21:04.12 | 4:14.45 | 94812 | 113906
    8 | 25:18.57 | 3:00.55 | 113907 | 127461
    9 | 28:19.37 | 3:55.43 | 127462 | 145129
    10 | 32:15.05 | 3:15.20 | 145130 | 159774


    Track 1

    Filename Track01.wav

    Timing problem 0:00:00
    Timing problem 0:00:33

    Peak level 85.5 %
    Test CRC 161898C7
    Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 2) [9D845448], AccurateRip returned [E83E5448]
    Copy finished

    Track 2

    Filename Track02.wav

    Peak level 95.0 %
    Test CRC DDCE6CD1
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [15BA2B3B]
    Copy OK

    Track 3

    Filename Track03.wav

    Peak level 94.9 %
    Test CRC D745C944
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [06493B53]
    Copy OK

    Track 4

    Filename Track04.wav

    Peak level 86.1 %
    Test CRC EB9132C6
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [E3C6EDAB]
    Copy OK

    Track 5

    Filename Track05.wav

    Peak level 88.5 %
    Test CRC F152B395
    Cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 2) [52FDE238], AccurateRip returned [71E0E827]
    Copy OK

    Track 6

    Filename Track06.wav

    Peak level 98.1 %
    Test CRC 459B796C
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [C3BB95FA]
    Copy OK

    Track 7

    Filename Track07.wav

    Peak level 96.1 %
    Test CRC 0CF67513
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [B24DDD82]
    Copy OK

    Track 8

    Filename Track08.wav

    Peak level 88.5 %
    Test CRC F5A65A70
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [DFDB6E22]
    Copy OK

    Track 9

    Filename Track09.wav

    Peak level 90.9 %
    Test CRC 751099E3
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [3ED4B304]
    Copy OK

    Track 10

    Filename Track10.wav

    Peak level 94.5 %
    Test CRC EC0C9F96
    Accurately ripped (confidence 2) [B23641FB]
    Copy OK


    8 track(s) accurately ripped
    2 track(s) could not be verified as accurate

    Some tracks could not be verified as accurate

    No errors occurred

    End of status report
     
  18. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

    Another update:

    Mastering 1:
    98.4/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8

    MCA Remaster 1999 MCD-11916 / Matrix: MCD-11916 00088 111 916-2 01 (Made in Germany by Universal M&L)

    Mastering 2:
    84.5/93.9/93.8/85.1/87.5/97.0/96.1/87.5/90.9/94.5

    MCA Citizen boxed set MCAD 4-10981 / Matrix: MCAD 4109812 Y1D3A MFD BY JVC

    Mastering 3 (Steve Hoffman's version):
    100.0/100.0/94.1/100.0/100.0/100.0/79.2/92.3/89.2/100.0

    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix:SONOPRESS I-5630 / MCD01800 A, DS2, IFPI 0764
    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix: SONOPRESS I-5630 / MCD01800 A IFPI L022 DS2
    MCA Japan for USA MCAD-37043 DIDX 373 (full artwork) / Matrix: MCAD-37043-U2E14
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) / Matrix: MCAD-37043-A4E
    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) / Matrix: MCD01800 50169153 01 MADE IN GERMANY

    Mastering 4 (Steve Hoffman's master, turned down a bit??):
    97.7/97.7/92.0/97.7/97.7/97.7/77.4/90.2/87.2/97.7

    MCA Switzerland 250 494-2 MCAD-37043 / Matrix: W 250494-2 1124 477 1 *

    Mastering 5 (same source tape as mastering 2):
    85.5/95.0/94.9/86.1/88.5/98.1/96.1/88.5/90.9/94.5

    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) Mfd for BMG (D100406) / Matrix: IFPI L239 D100406 1J11
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) / Matrix: MCAD-31194-1 1C MFD BY JVC
    MCA ?? / Matrix: MCAD-31194-1 1C
    MCA MCAD-31194 MFG by UNI / Matrix: MCAD 31194 A50905CG

    Mastering 6 (another level adjusted Steve master?):
    100/99.9/93.2/100/100/100/78.1/90.9/88.7/99.8

    MCA USA MCAD 31194 DIDY-373 / Matrix: DIDX-000373 3

    Mastering 7:
    93.9/94.3/94.3/94.2/94.3/94.3/94.3/94.2/94.2/94.2

    MCA Remaster? MFG BY UNIVERSAL / Matrix: MCAD1191603066713137
     
  19. monkuboy

    monkuboy Forum Resident

    I just got a copy of Katy Lied today from Half.com. I have the 1999 remaster but wanted to hear an earlier version. Just ran it through EAC and the levels match up exactly with Mastering 3, SH's version. It's too late to play it with the volume up so I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow but I'm really curious to hear the difference between this and the 1999 remaster. The one I just got is the MCA USA MCAD-31194 version.
     
  20. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

    An update:

    Mastering 1:
    98.4/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8/98.8

    MCA Remaster 1999 MCD-11916 / Matrix: MCD-11916 00088 111 916-2 01 (Made in Germany by Universal M&L)

    Mastering 2:
    84.5/93.9/93.8/85.1/87.5/97.0/96.1/87.5/90.9/94.5

    MCA Citizen boxed set MCAD 4-10981 / Matrix: MCAD 4109812 Y1D3A MFD BY JVC

    Mastering 3 (Steve Hoffman's version):
    100.0/100.0/94.1/100.0/100.0/100.0/79.2/92.3/89.2/100.0

    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix:SONOPRESS I-5630 / MCD01800 A, DS2, IFPI 0764
    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) Matrix: SONOPRESS I-5630 / MCD01800 A IFPI L022 DS2
    MCA Japan for USA MCAD-37043 DIDX 373 (full artwork) / Matrix: MCAD-37043-U2E14
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) / Matrix: MCAD-37043-A4E
    MCA MCD 01800/DMCL 1800 (Distributed by BMG Ariola) / Matrix: MCD01800 50169153 01 MADE IN GERMANY
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 / Matrix: ?

    Mastering 4 (Steve Hoffman's master, turned down a bit??):
    97.7/97.7/92.0/97.7/97.7/97.7/77.4/90.2/87.2/97.7

    MCA Switzerland 250 494-2 MCAD-37043 / Matrix: W 250494-2 1124 477 1 *

    Mastering 5 (same source tape as mastering 2):
    85.5/95.0/94.9/86.1/88.5/98.1/96.1/88.5/90.9/94.5

    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) Mfd for BMG (D100406) / Matrix: IFPI L239 D100406 1J11
    MCA USA MCAD-31194 (Compact Price/Plaid-back) / Matrix: MCAD-31194-1 1C MFD BY JVC
    MCA ?? / Matrix: MCAD-31194-1 1C
    MCA MCAD-31194 MFG by UNI / Matrix: MCAD 31194 A50905CG

    Mastering 6 (another level adjusted Steve master?):
    100/99.9/93.2/100/100/100/78.1/90.9/88.7/99.8

    MCA USA MCAD 31194 DIDY-373 / Matrix: DIDX-000373 3

    Mastering 7:
    93.9/94.3/94.3/94.2/94.3/94.3/94.3/94.2/94.2/94.2

    MCA Remaster? MFG BY UNIVERSAL / Matrix: MCAD1191603066713137
     
  21. mdekoning

    mdekoning Senior Member Thread Starter

    Here's a summary of what we know so far. The only thing I'm not yet sure of is where mastering 6 fits in. Until proven that it's different, it's close enough to Steve's mastering to list it there.

    Mastering 3 & 4 (& 6?)

    Mastered by Steve Hoffman and used for all original mid 80s CDs. This time not the UK Nimbus but a copy from Switzerland is the one that's slightly turned down. A US 31XXX comes (mastering 6) comes pretty close as well, although somebody would have to confirm that it's really identical.

    Mastering 2 & 5

    Glenn Meadows' 1991 mastering. First surfaced on 31XXX Compact Price plaid back discs (mastering 5), later used for the Citizen boxed set (mastering 2).

    Mastering 1 & 7

    The 1998 remaster. Strangely it exists at 2 different levels, with the European version being loud than the other (is that from the US?). Other albums don't have different versions of the remaster. I've read in the liner notes to the Aja remaster that there are early copies out there with an incorrect tracklisting. Could that explain the differences here?
     
  22. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    How does the Meadows mastering compare to Steve's?
     
  23. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    How can I tell if I have the SH Katy Lied?

    Saw one at the used store, and before I pull the trigger, how do I tell if it is the SH mastering? Besides waveforms, obviously. Any info would help. Thanks!

    Evan
     
  24. jwoverho

    jwoverho Licensed Drug Dealer

    Location:
    Mobile, AL USA
    Here's from Steve's discography:

    here are two pressings currently identified as Steve's. The Digital Audio Disc Corp. USA pressing, with that company's name stamped in the clear inner ring and also the USA pressing MCAD 31194 with DIDY-373 and the non-plaid back artwork. The copyright dates on the back insert and in the booklet are 1975 and 1985. The back insert has "MCAD 31194" in the bottom left corner and "DIDY-373" in the bottom right corner. The disc has the following information to the right of the CD format logo:
    MCD 31194
    DIDY 000373
    CRC
     
  25. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    CRC for Columbia Record Club?

    Evan
     

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