Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality: A Jolly Christmas (1957)

Thanks, as always Bob F, for being so helpful!

 

Having just reexamined the 2005 issue, I must amend that statement somewhat: The ℗ 1987 date is insufficient to identify a Walsh mastering. All U.S. issues with copyright © dates of 1999 or later are Norberg versions.

 

My red cover Norberg, from BMG, has both 1987 and 2005 copyrights on the back. The booklet has just 1987 and credits Walsh. So it could be that a version with 1987 and with no other (later) copyright appearing anywhere is definitively Walsh. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the appearance of 1987 is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for it to be a Walsh. If it also has a later date in addition, eg 1999 or 2005, it is Norberg.

 

No, it doesn't. It has a 1987 mastering (P) date and a 2005 copyright (C) date. That was my point: You can't rely solely on the mastering date. (In the case of the 2005 edition, the mastering date is wrong!)

The P and C symbols in circles mean different things.

 

Ahhh lightbulb. Now I get it. I thought P & C were interchangeable.

 

Of course, nothing is ever certain when it comes to Capitol and Sinatra. But, at the risk of beating a dead horse here, in the photos I posted above, the 1987 copyright date, visible on the back cover, is one identifier that the CD contains Walsh's mastering, correct?

 

It's a P, not a C, but I can't see it on the photo. Where is it?

 

Thanks for the clarification, as always, Bob.

By the way, I like your new avatar--didn't know that you were a Henry Fonda fan!

 

:thumbsdn:

Bob knows how I feel about those "reverse negatives". :thumbsdn:

 

Splitting hairs on a trivial rabbit here but... The (P) and (C) may have nothing to do with the mastering, but rather be referring to the content; whereas the original LP of A Jolly Christmas would be (P) 1957, the 1987 CD release added content, the bonus tracks, and in that form is being (P) 1987. A 2005 reissue of the 1987 CD content becomes (P) 1987, (C) 2005. There can be distinctions between licensing A Jolly Christmas (P) 1957 (no bonus tracks), (P) 1987 (tracks on the 1987 CD) or if you add or change anything it becomes a new release with a new (P).

Sorry for the boring pedantry. Of course I wish they'd clearly list mastering credits and that they'd all say Larry Walsh instead, as I think his mastering of it is quite fine.

 

No, the photo you posted does not have a copyright (C) date on the back cover.

Correct. It's the last fine print text line above the Capitol logo, about 3/4 of the way down the page. (Inside booklet states "Remastered by Larry Walsh.") Here's a scanned blowup from my 1992 Concepts box issue:

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For comparison, here are some other scans of back cover fine print...

1999 EOTC Issue ("24-Bit Digitally Remastered by Bob Norberg" on back) :


2005 Reissue ("Remastered by Larry Walsh" inside; but it's really Norberg) :


2011 Reissue (No inside credit; but it's Norberg) :
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The 1999 and 2011 CD examples above are contrary to this theory. All four examples have the same song content as the 1987 CD. (Note also that the 2007 50th Anniversary reissue had an extra track.)

Historically, the P-in-a-circle symbol stood for "phonograph recording." Today, it's recognized as a copyright equivalent for sound, not content. (See Wikipedia article: Sound recording copyright symbol.)

Ditto.

 

People were starting to think I represented Frank Sinatra Enterprises, John. Had to stop using their logos.

Couldn't let Mr. S be rude by facing away from the forum posts, Paul.

 

So basically it makes no sense from any standpoint.

The 1999 was the exact same content wise right? (I never checked, it's Norberg).

 

Yep. And the 2005 was the same digital disc master as the 1999. Go figure.

 

Learning stuff here this morning - and realizing that Capitol might not have been correct with their copyrights over the years. I wonder what determines when the (P) date has to be changed.

The actual content of this CD has remained the same throughout the years - 14 tracks - so it's more than just content. Mastering? That would make sense. When an album is re-mastered, then the sound is "changed". Looking at Bob Norberg's first release of this title, the (P) date changes to "1999", so that holds up.

But if content & mastering have been the same since 1999, they why would the (P) date change? (Obviously, in 2005, they made an error.) EQ? If you take identical content & mastering & change anything - EQ, Gaps, etc. - is that enough to warrant a change in the (P) date?

Whew! Very glad I have a 1987 Larry Walsh!

(Now, what I REALLY want is the version of Christmas Songs By Sinatra on Columbia with the gold border around the edge of the booklet! That's supposed to be excellent - and you never know what you will get from an Amazon seller - anybody know where I can look?)

Dexter

 

Hey, John, if I was a Fonda fan, my avatar might look something like this:

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[ Insert threadcrap apology. ]

 

I did the same thing and was able to confirm through the seller that it was indeed the version with the gold border. I bought mine a month or so back for less than $5 shipped.

 

Exactly, but "recorded content" does not mean song selection as Chris suggested earlier. A change in mastering should be accompanied by a change in the phonogram (P) date.

It's unclear what should happen when analog LP masters are reissued on CD. I've seen many cases where the LP date was carried over to the CD, but not usually where there was any amount of remixing or major digital remastering.

The recent Sinatra reissue series by Universal Music in Europe has (P) dates which are all over the place. Errors are particularly apparent when the discs are digital copies of earlier Reprise issues, but the dates are changed to years in the future of the original issues.

Whatever "should" happen, it's clear in the case of A JOLLY CHRISTMAS that Capitol has been inconsistent over the years in their many reissues--to the point that the (P) date is unreliable as a means of identification.

 

Maybe you should use the "anxious" Frank image from the early Sinatra/Reprise LPs, especially when discussing matters of tainted sound & catalog confusion like this.

 

Good point, Martin. Frank would probably want to face in the other direction, in this thread at least.

 

My Word! She really was something.....

 

I just received this copy of A Jolly Christmas courtesy of an Amazon marketplace seller. It is, indeed, Larry Walsh's mastering and it is in pristine condition. The collector in me is extremely happy!

This album positively SHINES in mono! I have a grey label LP in pretty close to mint condition, but without a proper turntable to really do it justice, I never played it. So, every time I listened to A Jolly Christmas, it was the EOTC Bob Norberg mastering. I don't think I'll ever listen to that edition again. Mono is how A Jolly Christmas was meant to be heard. The vocals and the orchestra blend so much better. No one element competes for focus or attention and the album as a whole sounds incredibly smooth!

Thanks for all the advice and technical info provided in this thread. I couldn't have welcomed this new addition into my Christmas music collection without you guys!

 

It's a lengthy thread and I did do a search...

Does anybody know of a Japanese stereo double LP of 'AJC' on red vinyl, supposedly pressed in 1961? Seems kind of odd to me... does this issue really exist?

 

There was Japanese red vinyl LP but it was duophonic and was issued in the late 60's. It was not a double LP.