CSG Processed Mono Master?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by ascot, Feb 1, 2003.

  1. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Some CSG 45s I have seem to have a slightly more pronounced groove structure, probably due to the increased vertical (out of phase) content, but others look no different. Cream's Anyone For Tennis/Pressed Rat and Warthog falls into the latter category.

    Unfortunately I don't have Wheels of Fire on LP. That is obviously a mix of CSG and non-CSG.

    The point is that the mono versions were created using the CSG process, rather than via dedicated mixdowns via the multitracks.
     
  2. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    I think the Haeco-CSG process kind of fizzled out around 1970, just as Chrysalis was getting going in the U.S.

    To me, the best way to spot it is by looking at it on a phase scope or by listening in headphones. There's some weird phasiness in center-channel vocals. I never really understood why until I heard some remixed Association tracks years ago, and then I said, "ah -- that's why this record sounded so weird."

    This Wikipedia link explains how to reprocess CSG to remove the out-of-phase problems and correct the recordings with Adobe Audition and similar programs. I had forgotten that the chief engineer of A&M Records invented the process. Yikes...
     
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  3. chewy

    chewy Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Coast USA
    um, you guys are gonna kill me....but the edit side label actually does say below the ASCAP notice: "CSG PROCESS".....sry.....
     
  4. chewy

    chewy Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Coast USA
    i am listening to it now, it seems to be in stereo and when you a/b the sound w/ the mono button every few bars, i notice a differnce.....everything sounds slightly louder in stereo, w/ mono button it still sounds balanced and good. the unedit side has no mention of csg anywhere....(I SWEAR)...thats weird instead of a stereo/mono single, u get with this a csg/non csg single, lol--

    ---reel stereo side seems more "natural" to me. i cant put my finger on describing the different, but the real stereo is more natural, the csg side is more "pumped up".
     
  5. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Unfortunately, CSG carried on, according to Wiki, until maybe 1979 on the single "Pop Muzik by M. My filed copy is buried under 5 boxes of 45's so I haven't been able to confirm this. However, I do have a Carpenters promo 45 in front of me from 1977, A&M 1978-S, "Calling Occupants Of Interplanetary Craft" and the edited side is CSG stereo. The flip side is the LP version in regular stereo. What were the Carpenters thinking?????

    If you look at the way CSG was created, doesn't it look kinda like the process for matrix quad LP's? Although a CSG recording has disadvantages when played on a stereo, when you play it back through a matrix quad system, a Dolby 5.1 or Pro-Logic processor, the recording really comes to life. Because of the channel phasing, very little sound comes from the center channel speaker and the normally centered vocal comes out of all 4 surround speakers.
     
  6. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Many times on the Warner/Reprise 45's that used CSG, they didn't say CSG but just said "Compatable". In the trail-off "COMP" would be etched in after the matrix number. On the label, the CSG stereo 45's didn't have the traditional "S" after the matrix number. I can't think of the title off the top my head but there was a Gordon Lightfoot and a Maria Muldaur 45 like this.

    Not all the CSG mixes were totally weirded out, some actually sounded like true stereo. The way to describe the sound of a CSG recording would be to describe it as an early version of matrix quadraphonic.
     
  7. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    The point is there was no point in a mono CSG record. Why? I think only Atlantic/Atco did something stupid like this. A&M didn't do a mono CSG record and that's where the process started.
     
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  8. CT Dave

    CT Dave Senior Member

    Location:
    Connecticut
    I have an ATCO 45 from either '68 or '69, "Mama Soul" by The Soul Survivors that says "CSG Processed Mono Master" on the label. The 45 is near mint but sounds very tinny and shrill. Could be the recording but most Atlantic/ATCO singles from that era sound pretty good.
     
  9. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    Maybe it's my old ears, but I never noticed much of a difference in the sound of a CSG mono recording. To me, although a mono recording seems to have more punch, they tend to sound more muddy due to, I believe, overloading the two channels of a stereo with the same information burying the higher frequencies. A true stereo two-channel recording spreads the information out allowing the weaker sounds to be heard. How the recording sounds should have been taken care of with the EQ and the mix.
     
  10. Ramos Pinto

    Ramos Pinto New Member

    Location:
    Southeast US
    This is fascinating stuff. Has there ever been an attempted comprehensive list of these masterings?

    The Wiki suggests that it sometimes was used during mixing, but this seems bogus.
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Why does that seem bogus? Hunderds of songs were mixed in this ****ed up way. WHITE ROOM/Cream, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL MORNING/Rascals, I'VE GOTTA BE ME/Sammy Davis, Jr. and hundreds more.
     
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  12. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    2/3 of the studio half of Wheels of Fire, in fact.

    I would agree in hindsight that it doesn't make much sense that they would apply CSG during mixing rather than disc cutting, but...they did.
     
  13. GroovinGarrett

    GroovinGarrett Mrs. Stately's Garden

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Gordon Lightfoot in CSG processed mono:
     

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  14. Ramos Pinto

    Ramos Pinto New Member

    Location:
    Southeast US
    Imagine you're sitting in front of those Altec monitors trying to make this sound good in stereo during mixing and the signal is going through this phase-distortion matrix. Tough work. Luke understands my thinking that it was logical to mix for stereo and apply the phase-trickery in mastering after the fact. Sorry that this was not the case!

    So if I had a SH mastered cd containing "White Room" and a stock cd containing "White Room", I could likely hear the CSG effect on the stock cd, correct? Your cd would have the recording polarity corrected/repaired.
     
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Horrible invention. I curse it.
     
  16. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm not aware of any commercial issue of White Room - DCC Wheels of Fire included - that doesn't have the CSG processing. I'm not sure anybody knew how to undo the process until a few years ago.

    That said, here's a clip of the DCC version, de-CSG'd using Stereo Tool:

    White Room (DCC, de-CSG'd)
     
  17. jukeboxexpress

    jukeboxexpress Forum Resident

    Location:
    Fresno, CA, U.S.A.
    I think that I've seen this one before. CSG mono? What were these boneheads thinking?
     
  18. jukeboxexpress

    jukeboxexpress Forum Resident

    Location:
    Fresno, CA, U.S.A.
    I've got a sealed 180g vinyl copy of this LP and Disraeli Gears also. Both came out within the last few years, I believe. I wonder if they use the CSG mix?
     
  19. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I would assume there was some unexpected issue with stereo compatibility, but they still didn't want to do a separate mono mix.

    No CSG on DG. While I'm not certain, I would be surprised if any new reissues undo the CSG on WoF.
     
  20. cencalphono

    cencalphono New Member

    Location:
    Santa Maria,CA
    I was going through my Warner/Reprise Gordon Lightfoot 45 collection, and did they do a CSG number on poor Gordy! I found a copy of the 45 that the picture was posted here previously. Funny thing, it only says CSG mono on one side. I've found both CSG stereo and non-CSG mono on different promo copies of the same records. The commercial copies are always regular stereo. There is no indication of CSG anything on my Canadian promos and regular 45's. The Canadian promos tend to be mono. What a tragedy.
     
  21. bigmsound

    bigmsound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn NY USA
    It costs less to use the:shake:CSG process:rolleyes: for creating the mono fold downs than instead of using a proper dedicated mono master. I'll bet a majority of the mono mixes that were used on Warner Bros, A&M and Atlantic 45's throughout the 70's utilized the CSG mono process, but there was no indication on the record label.
     
  22. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Interesting aid for Haeco-CSG from the late 1960s. Note that Howard Holzer, the inventor of the process, was chief engineer of A&M Records for quite a few years.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. bigmsound

    bigmsound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn NY USA
    "They play perfectly on all stereo and mono systems. The quality is excellent on both."
    Excellent quality, yeah right. To who's standards? LOL!!!
     
  24. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    With truth in advertising, maybe it should've said, "it sounds just as crappy in mono as it does in stereo!"

    I agree with Steve: a horrible, horrible process. It can be undone if you know the phase tricks and settings; this piece on Wikipedia goes into it in detail. Be warned that it hinges on good VTA and channel balance from the original vinyl assuming it's from vinyl), and precise head alignment on the master.
     
  25. chewy

    chewy Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Coast USA
    i appiled CSG-process to the ad
     

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