A discussion about high end hook up wire

Hi guys,

DISCLAIMER: If you do not believe wire and cable make a difference, then that is fine, but THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR YOU. Crap somewhere else, we have heard your opinion.

This thread is about what people have found to be true. If you disagree with wire mattering at all, PLEASE DO NOT POST. If you think wire matters, but disagree with another poster's preference or findings, politely say that your experience was different, and state what YOU found to be true.

This thread has no right or wrong. It is to be a collection of findings, from which interested parties may decide what they would like to believe and/or learn from it.

That goes two ways. If someone can't behave their self and craps this thread, then understand that they have some sort of bizarre emotional/personality problem, and ignore them with empathy.

:END DISCLAIMER.

I'm gathering data on some upcoming modification projects, many of which involve upgrading the internal wire of some of my components and speakers.

What I am noticing is that there are a lot of very exotic offerings out there, but not very many reviews by users who have actually given these products a shot. In particular, I am interested in any feedback on what wire people have tried, and what their results were.

There are lots of testimonies about Cardas and Vampire. That's fine, and I'm sure it's very good wire. I would be comfortable using it, but before I made that choice, I would want some discussion about how these two brands compare to these offerings, in particular (feel free to suggest others):

-Mundorf Silver/Gold
-Duelund Silver Foil/silk in oil
-Furutech
-Amtrans gold plated copper
-Auric
-Legenberg Rectangular copper

All of the above are available at Parts Connexion, so they're not unobtanium. But I can't find good reviews or convincing commentary about them anywhere.

That's why I'm starting this thread. It's not beating a dead horse if you can't find the dead horse in the first place, and you don't have the information you need to pick the most effective stick to beat it with.

There is also Stage III Concepts hook up wire:

http://www.trueaudiophile.com/stage-iii-hook-up-wire-pure-silver-air-dielectric/

Considering that the runs I'm talking about replacing aren't in most cases longer than 6 inches, even the most expensive of these wires really won't end up costing more than an SHM-SACD, and I figure it's worth some experimentation.

I'll kick off by saying that my experience is that silver is usually a bad choice for signal carrying wire. However, that does not mean that there isn't a silver solution out there that disproves that concept, so if someone here who is experienced feels passionately about it, I'd be willing to give their suggestion a shot. You will note that several of the wires mentioned are in fact silver or silver/gold alloys, because I am open to these possibilities (also the companies that make them have excellent reputations for making superb products).

I don't feel the same way when it comes to power, and my favorite cords are Stage III, which are silver.

I am expecting that this is very much a "horses for courses" situation, as the British say. What's great for output-level speaker internals probably won't be the same as what is best for low-level signal carriers. So be specific about the application when you mention what you've tried and how it worked or did not work.

I am also interested in discussing advanced shielding solutions, if anyone has any experience with that. I know very little about shielding.

If someone has something nice to say, but does not wish to speak in front of the class, feel free to PM me about it.

Let the games begin!

ccm

 

Hi Steve,

I could say that the question is "What is your favorite cost-no-object hook up wire for each purpose in audio". The purposes being broken down, at the start, to:

-Low level signal wire inside line level equipment
-Speaker internal wiring

And also I am inviting discussion on people's experiences with the boutique'y wires I mentioned above. Did they work for you? Did they not? What did they improve or make worse?

ccm

 

I believe that cables make a lot of difference to the sound but I 've never even contemplated to change the internal wire of my speakers or any other component.
I have no skill to do it anyway, but even If I had, I think this is a case that I can trust the manufacturers. Otherwise it 's getting insane.

 

FM Acoustics P.I.T. interconnects.

 

OK guys.

For the record, I apologize for any lack of clarity. I am talking about internal wire, not interconnects.

Unless you have stripped your interconnects down and used them as internal hook up wire or speaker wire. That would be interesting and an example of what we are going for.

@ 5 String: signal-carrying wire is signal-carrying wire, whether it is inside or outside of a box. It's all part of the signal chain. When you break it down dollar for dollar, upgrading your internal wire costs much less than very modest interconnects. The only caveat being that if you decide to modify your gear, you had better accept from the start that even though you will probably make it sound better, you will destroy your resale value. So you had better know you're keeping that gear in the family before you warm up your soldering iron.

This thread is for people who are interested in replacing the wire inside of their components and speakers, and to discuss choices for the materials involved with that.

Thanks,
ccm

 

That DID occur to me

ccm

 

No experience in replacing internal wiring inside loudspeakers or components.

But I like what I see inside Allen Wright's VSE Real-Time preamp: super fine gauge silver wire in Litz braids.

I like the idea of unbleached cotton insulation although my modified XA777ES (modded by Ric Schultz of EVS) has silver in Teflon, which is also good - if the wire is a loose fit then it's really air that is the dielectric.

 

For example, check this out,

http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/jupiter/jupiter-wire-cable-main-page.htm

Look at the picture at the bottom of this solution for a signal cable. That's pretty wild.

There are getting to be several really radically different approaches to making what is theoretically the best solution for internal hook up wire. But there are very few people who actually have EXPERIMENTED with these.

With this thread I am trying to ask for those people's opinions, or even to find a few people who are willing to take on some experimenting themselves.

I really hate having to close my eyes and put my finger on the screen and GUESS what internal wire will be the best for the job, when it seems that so many companies are going the extra mile with wire design. I don't believe these offerings are all equal. But I'd rather ask around before I re-wire my gear 6 times to answer this question.

ccm

 

Metralla,

You see, that's what puzzles me, and I'd like to discuss it. Lots of modders use silver internal wire. But again, my experience is that silver interconnects are rarely the best performers OUTSIDE the box.

That baffles me, because it's the same signal. It also leads me to believe that there is probably a better solution for the internal wire than the "silver bullet" solution.

Understand, I'm not saying anything with silver in it sounds bad. Far from it. Just wondering if there is a copper based product that would take it a smidge further, or if the silver is possibly a tiny mis-step in an otherwise wonderful topology or design solution.

Also, horses for courses. Maybe silver is better at a particular range of low voltage levels, copper is better after pre-amplification and power amplification, etc...you know? There are tons of variables, and I don't know for sure yet.

Certainly it makes sense to look "outside the box" at what we use in order to select internal wiring. If we love a certain interconnect, maybe upgrading internals to the wire in that interconnect would open things up. I have my power amplifier modified such that the amplified signal output wire that goes from the circuit board to the back of the binding posts is the same as my speaker cable. It made an improvement, although the manufacturer of the speaker cable won't sell wire like that anymore.

But interconnects aren't just the wire composition. It's also the shielding. The braid. The physical dampening characteristics. And they have to be solderable at one end to a circuit board, in most cases.

It's an interesting challenge, and when you look at the internals of even many high end gear, you can see that they chose just not to take this experimentation on at all. The wire they use internally is, shall we say, often not very special. Again, that's fine, their designs result in superb sound quality anyway, but I believe you can get more out of them by addressing this limitation.

ccm

 

Steve,

It has been my experience that just because I like the way something sounds, does not mean that it can't sound better.

I find that there are designers that are whiz kids at topology, who don't believe in parts. Then there are designers who believe in parts, and aren't quite so good at the topology side of things. Rarely do you get both in one package, and that's before you add other variables like does the designer have talent for listening?

The EMM Labs CDSD is a very good CD player. I dig it. I like it's voicing. But if you look on the old ones, they use a cheap filtered IEC inlet. I replaced it with a better IEC inlet, and the sound opened up a little. I like it better now.

This isn't an isolated incident. Lots of great gear has "opportunity" parts in it.

Stuff like this is about making great better.

If you know an interconnect has an effect on sound, and if you're reading this thread down to this point, you probably do, then why not see what happens to your sound when you upgrade your internal wire? It's all part of the same signal chain.

ccm

 

Don't forget the AC wires inside the walls of your house.

 

I applaud your enthusiasm for improving your whole system's wiring. I hope my comments are accepted, and not dismissed as delusional or psychologically troubled. Here's another tidbit to consider, the connectors. In my opinion, after you upgrade the external and internal wiring, the connectors will be the next bottleneck. Years ago I upgraded my internal wiring of my speakers, and changed the connectors as well. Unfortunately, I cannot locate any info on the wire I used (it's not printed on the wire itself, was on the roll, which is now gone). But, I did use Superior Electric SuperCon connectors. Follow this link for cable and panel connectors. I used the 100A size. These are very nice connectors with plenty of contact area, and good force to boot. A mated connector pair of these SuperCons is as good as no connector at all, IMHO. I used 5ga external wiring, and 8ga internal.

Unfortunately, I changed the external, internal, and connectors at the same time. The change was dramatic, but I am unable to tell which change had the greatest impact. This was only on the woofer section that I did this. The midrange is still "one of these days" sort of thing.

 

I have already upgraded my in-wall wire, Vidiot, as well as the breaker panel, and the wire that runs from the breaker panel to the service transformer. Dug an 84 foot trench to do so.

Please refrain from crapping my thread further.

ccm

 

Firstly, I am a firm believer in the sonic benefits from upgrading internal wiring.

The first place I upgraded internal wiring was on my Tannoy 15" MGs, when I scratch built new crossovers, following the original Tannoy schematic. I used Cardas chassis/hook up wire for the crossover and connections to drivers. I also bypassed the 4 pin Tannoy plug and soldered directly to the connecting points. Though I can't comment on how the internal wire upgrade improved the sound (did not A/B vs original wire), I can tell you my Tannoys sound much, much better using audio grade coupling capacitors, resistors, and hook up wire vs the original crossovers.

I then began re-wiring a tube phono stage I was using to see if chassis wire mattered. I only replaced four small pieces of wire: from IEC to fuse, from fuse to power switch, from power switch to transformer, and from transformer to IEC. I didn't expect much of a difference. Then I turned on my phono stage. Immediately the sound was more "natural". More open, clearer, all that stuff. Cardas chassis wire takes about 20 hours to "open up". Basically, the difference I heard is the same difference as upgrading a cable. I systematically continued changing wire at different points in the circuit over a period of about 6 upgrades. Each time I heard the same improvement. I went on to upgrade capacitors, resistors, etc but that is for another thread. Working on that phono stage was the precursor to building my own, from scratch, as well as scratch building my own tube amp (avatar), using all audio grade components. In both cases, I used Cardas hook up wire throughout, and I would highly recommend that anyone considering building a component spend the extra dollar or so per ft and use audio grade hook up wire.

I have not used any of the other wires in your post, but I will be trying DH Labs silver wire to see how it fares. That Dueland wire is extremely highly regarded. While I have not use the Mundorf silver/gold, I have used Mundorf silver/gold/oil caps in my tube phono stage and in my crossovers, and they are outstanding.

Bottom line: in my experience, chassis wire matters big time. Cardas wire is worth every penny, and most likely so are the other audio grade wires you listed. Our sound systems are really just one long wire, so it makes sense that chassis wire is key.

 

You are quite correct. Connectors, also, are in the signal chain, and very deserving of thought, selection, and auditioning.

If you find out what you were using, let us know.

ccm

 

Great post, Tubesandvinyl. This is what I'm looking for.

I have done work on the power side up to this point, like in your phono stage. But I would like to get into the signal wire.

Please post in this thread what your experiences are with the DH Labs.

It strikes me that everyone does the Cardas solution because they have read that people have worked with it and got good results.

That's great, but who is testing the new exotics? I think we should, if nobody else is.

I am considering buying a second identical Stax headphone amp to do listening tests. Wire one with Duelund, and one with stock. Winner advances to the next round, loser gets re-wired. Then make it winner vs. Mundorf, then Amtrans, Jupiter, etc.

I figure there is not much signal wire in those things, so it should be the least hassle and things like room acoustics will be out of the equation for the listening testing.

Sigh - unfortunately I only get 11 days off every six weeks, and I'm offshore for the rest. As you can imagine, my projects are a little bit backed up right now. This break is already spoken for with the completion of building an M3 kit multimeter and testing some resistors for an upgrade to my Acoustat Spectra 6600's.

ccm

 

Thanks, CCM. I will post when the DH Labs arrives. I'm going to trial replace the Cardas wire from the input RCA on my tube amp to the driver tube, each channel. It's about a one foot length. I'll give it 20+ hours and post my results.

I started with Cardas because I use Cardas GR cables, cords, and ICs and am very happy with the results.

 

Yes, connectors also matter. In my early experiments, I replaced the garden variety binding posts and RCAs with Cardas connectors, and the dollar bin IEC with high end Furutech IECs. Very clear improvements.

 

It seems a bit dangerous to worry about better wire inside the box if you ask me. That will impact the "voicing" of the designer's intent. It's quite possible you wind up with something worse sounding.

 

LeeS, You're right, it likely will impact the "voicing". And it is possible it might be worse. But, if the original component has poor internal wiring, then installing better wiring is one of the cheapest ways to improve the performance of the unit.

If I saw a component with good internal wiring, I would leave it alone. But, sadly, there is gear out there with poorly considered wiring.

 

You know what would be cool? A surface-mount screw down clamp for wire. like a they have in junction boxes.

If they make such a thing, then it would be easy to swap wires and compare. Just unscrew them and screw in their replacements.

I know that there are RCA inputs that use allen key-wrenchable connections for the internal wire connector. If I could install something similar on the circuit board side of things in the two Stax amps, then we would really have an effective and efficient testing platform.

I wouldn't even know how to start searching for such a thing, but maybe one of our readers can point us towards a way to make a quickly swappable pressure connection to a circuit board, without solder.

ccm