Sinatra / Reprise Sound Quality: "I Remember Tommy" (1961)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey

    "the more-familiar confines of United Recorders."


    At that point of Sinatra/Reprise, they weren't much more familiar! :)
     
  2. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Last week, I played "Imagination" off the mono LP. Regarding this song (both on the mono and stereo):

    It does have better bass, and I can sort of hear why Steve prefers the horn sound on it (I do like some aspects of it better), but I still came away preferring the stereo version off the R9 LP overall. Frank's vocal sounds "off" to my ears on the mono tonally, with more echo than needed, and an oddly disconnected quality from the rest of the band. I wouldn't have expected that, but it's like he's in his own "spot" in the layering of the mono image but not that well integrated into the whole. Also, the stereo has a live quality to the various horns overall that - on the good masterings of it (the R9, and even the EOTC disc) - sound quite present, at least when they're not blaring too hard. When they do, I guess that's when the 'tizz' comes in sometimes. The trombones/French horns particularly have this nice presence. On the other hand, the trumpets sometimes seem to not come off as well as those instruments (I can't remember if they're better on the mono). The reeds ended up sort of in-between the trombones/French horns and the trumpets, fidelity wise.

    Side note - and not just confined to this album - but why were the bass and drums separated, soundstage wise? There's leakage and all that helps integrate this some, but this doesn't make much sense to me.
     
    CBackley likes this.
  3. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    I'm going to have to seek out a mono LP how hard is it to find one in nice condition?
     
  4. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    The latter explanation seems most likely. From the "extra" liner notes for the 1993 CD, by James Isaacs...

    Later in his essay, Isaacs goes on to say this about the bonus track from the original sessions...
    Note to Matt: We all know which track you're talking about, but you fail to mention the song title in the excellent (as always) preview to your dissertation. :)
     
  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    ^^^^^Proof positive that I should never work on this stuff late at night! It's now fixed, and thanks, Bob, for pointing that out. What a boob! (Me, I mean.)

    Matt
     
  6. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Thanks for posting the orchestra info, Bob. I thought there might have been one French Horn by listening, but wouldn't swear to it only being one, so made it plural above...
     
  7. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    BTW, the distinctive French horn intro on "Blue of Evening" from the March sessions was by James Decker.

    On the three May dates at United for the LP recordings, a different musician played French horn each night: (1) Vincent DeRosa, (2) James Decker, (3) George Price.
     
    CBackley likes this.
  8. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Terrific, Matt. Looking forward to the comparisons and the analysis.
     
  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I have posted some mono and stereo LP clips, open for all interested listeners, here. Please share your thoughts regarding what you hear!

    Matt
     
  10. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    I think I like the original stereo LP R-9-1003 better than my UK steamboat...
     
  11. SCOTT1234

    SCOTT1234 Senior Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    I prefer the US mono - aside from the crackles, the UK is a step down I guess as a result of being a tape dub.

    I think the UK stereo I sent was also a K50463 so it's probably a duplication of the bferr1 sample.

    The UK stereo's are a bit darker or have more bass to them but the US copies have better definition.

    The US R9-1003 is leaner but cleaner than the later FS1003.

    I'd be happy enough listening to the US mono for a cohesive sound with a touch more bass than the stereo, but there's nothing that would immediately put me off about the stereo mix either.

    I'm on the fence about mono/stereo but the original US copies win for me.
     
  12. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Seconded. I like the US originals. The K 50463 in a good pressing is still a nice record, but wish the gatefold and liner notes had been preserved.
     
  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I agree with you. The mono is very listenable, but I think I prefer the R9 stereo where the LPs are concerned, even though it is a tad shy on bass -- just a tad. (Link to samples.)

    Matt
     
  14. GroovinGarrett

    GroovinGarrett Mrs. Stately's Garden

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I'm playing a "scowling Frank" R9 right now. Sounds very nice. A dollar bin find. :)

    Matrices are R9-1003-30.038-A6 and -B6. REP is also etched in the deadwax. I believe this is an MGM Bloomfield pressing, the second and third symbol below are stamped in the deadwax and it has a 1.25" ring in the label area.
     

    Attached Files:

    • MGM.jpg
      MGM.jpg
      File size:
      2.9 KB
      Views:
      5
  15. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    I concur that your R9 is MGM Bloomfield pressed, GroovinGarrett.
     
  16. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    It may be because I'm so excited to hear the mono mix for the first time, but I instantly fell in love with the US “B8” mono LP. I very much appreciate the way that FS's vocal is integrated with the orchestra and I love the warmth on the bottom.

    But this could change if I got used to the mono mix. The "R9" is certainly very pleasant: it offers a nicely spread out stereo soundscape and has a lovely tone.

    Thanks for this Matt! And to all who contributed!
     
  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    The mono's good! One thing that MMM brought up really benefits from a mono presentation, and that's the way that the rhythm section is physically divided in the stereo version, with drums and guitar to the right, and bass and piano over on the left. (Having the piano split off from the other three is not that uncommon, but having bass and guitar on separate tracks of a 3-track recording of a band of this type is less common.)
     
  18. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Matt,

    I need to hunt down a mono original of this superb LP, it is my favorite Frank Sinatra LP on Reprise. I think having the band as an integrated whole is likely better sounding.
     
  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter


    There's definitely something to be said for that, yes. I like both the mono and stereo on this release, and can see why somebody might swing either way

    -----------------------------------------------------------------.

    As promised, I've pulled down the public-view page with the mono and stereo LP clips, but have now temporarily posted one A/B comparison between two preferred stereo pressings, plus clips from the two reel-to-reel releases of the album. This new stuff can be viewed here, and the contributors ("nuts") can still access things via the usual means.

    Matt
     
  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Bump.
     
  21. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Thanks again, Matt.

    The US stereo pressings that you have are consistently good (true, the R9 and FS versions are not far off at all).

    The two R2Rs, on the other hand: woooah, could those be more different?! The #S9-1003 is moody, brooding and dark, and the #RSL-1707 is so shiny and bright, it almost sounds like its speeded up.
     
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    You are correct, sir, and here's the scoop:

    Steve's sample was about a half-step lower in pitch than my tape, so I digitally adjusted Steve's clip to match mine. (Very presumptive of me, to think that MINE must be correct!) After reading your comment (just now), I compared both original, unaltered reel-to-reel samples, and found the following to be true: The S9 sample from Steve ran about a quarter-step too slow; my RSL reel ran about a quarter-step too fast! I have now uploaded a CORRECTED sample, with both tapes adjusted to play in sync with the 1998 EOTC CD. (See here or here.)

    Matt
     
  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    CD analysis viewable, here.

    Matt
     
  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I've also just added some oddball LP artwork, here.

    Matt
     
  25. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il

    Wow! Well, the song is now recognizable in both versions, with the S9 R2R actually sounding quite good. Perhaps not as nice as the stereo LPs, but, maybe, given your comparisons of the CD versions, better than both the suitcase and the EOTC tracks. I wonder what others will think.
     

Share This Page

molar-endocrine