MAD MEN -- Season FIVE Official Thread....

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Chip TRG, Mar 15, 2012.

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  1. Get2Me

    Get2Me Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    The scene where Peggy quits/Don fires her was brilliantly written, directed, and acted. So simple in scope and yet, it's a true testament to the talents of Elisabeth Moss and John Hamm that the scene came off as both heartbreaking and true to each of their respective characters.

    I'm going to miss seeing the special bond between Peggy and Don play out on screen in future episodes. However, their working dynamic was off kilter all season and it's clear Don pushed Peggy a bit too far in terms of valuing her contributions to SCDP. She was right to move on. And seemed to think so as she stepped into the elevator at the end of the episode.

    I did think for a hot second, though, that Peggy would take the plunge down the elevator shaft while wistfully glancing back at the office doors. But, I'm glad that didn't happen. I'm beginning to think that little plot detail already made it's point of emphasis in the episode in which it was featured and we're all waiting for the other shoe that will probably never drop. Maybe.

    Anyway, GREAT episode tonight! Only two left, right?
     
  2. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    I think they are having a bit of fun with the elevator. Placing some moments before the doors open making us wonder will someone fall. Good writing.
     
  3. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Maybe so. There have been a couple of other contenders for that crown already this season, and, of course, there were great episodes in earlier seasons as well. But tonight's episode was right up there. One of the things that I love about this show is that it will actually make major changes and write off characters. Sal and Freddie Rumsen and Paul Kinsey all got booted off, Don and Betty actually got divorced, and Don got re-married, and now Peggy leaves. When Don threw that money in her face, I knew she was going to leave. That was the culmination of his taking her for granted all season long. Will the show follow Peggy to the rival agency and have scenes of her working there? Are they just going to write Elisabeth Moss off the show? I don't know, but I would be stunned if she comes back to Sterling Cooper Draper Price, I mean Sterling Cooper Draper Price Harris. :eek:

    The plot with Joan prostituting herself out to Jaguar was foreshadowed earlier this season when Pete and the other account guys took another Jaguar exec to the whorehouse. If they would do that to try to land the account, why wouldn't they whore Joan out, too? Interesting to see Roger, Don, and Lane all hesitate to do so, because of their respective feelings for Joan, but, in the end, it was only Don who really took any sort of stand against it. If the other partners voted 4-0 for it, I suppose even Roger voted for it. And the way they tied in the objectification/prostitution theme with Don's pitch to Jaguar and to Megan's audition for her play ("Turn around, honey. No, turn around") was as clever as any tie between the ad pitches and the personal storylines that they've ever done. And then there was the further parallel between Joan naming her price, and Peggy naming her price in the scene where she met with the rival ad exec.

    A lot to chew over in tonight's episode. Hard to see where they go after what happened tonight, but there's still two episodes left.
     
  4. Hard Panner

    Hard Panner Baroque Popsike & Fuzz

    Probably my least favorite episode this season. Reminded me of earlier Mad Men episodes (season 1 or 2) - dark and devoid of any humor.

    If Joan is going to get her name on the door, you know darn well Pete will demand his name be on it, especially given the situation on how Joan got her name there - Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce Campbell Harris

    Joan climbed to the top of the ladder of SCDP while Peggy gives notice because she is not appreciated there. Though, Peggy is going places with her talent, Joan is still using sex.

    And now imagine Joan at the partner meetings - Pete won't let her forget how she got there. In fact, Don and Roger probably won't either.
     
  5. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    I'm not sure it's a given that Joan will get her name on the door - she's now a 5% partner. Pete is a "junior partner," whatever that means, but I'm guessing his share is more than 5%. But if the names on the door reflected actual talent, the firm would have been Draper Campbell Olsen Harris a long time ago.

    One could argue that sex is Joan's talent. As Don's Jaguar pitch suggests, sex is what makes the world go round, and it's not as if Joan hasn't used her sex appeal before to get ahead - certainly her ongoing affair with Roger didn't hurt her status at the firm. Peggy certainly always has deserved more recognition for her talent - recognition that Don has sometimes given and sometimes withheld. It appeared that the rival ad exec's praise for her work during their lunch meeting was as big a factor in her decision to leave as was the $19,000 a year that he offered her (over $100,00 a year in today's dollars, according to one recap I read, which also gives you some idea of just how much money the $50,000 offer that Joan initially turned down would have been worth to her).

    I don't think the subject will be brought up again. Don got where he has gotten to through his talent - and through stealing a dead man's identity and lying about it for the rest of his life. Pete has repeatedly shown that he is willing to do anything to get ahead, and Roger is no paragon of moral virtue, either. Lane got her into the partner meetings because he couldn't afford to take out a line of credit to pay her $50,000 to sleep with Mr. Jaguar because he already took out a $50,000 line of credit so that he could embezzle it for himself, so making her a partner was the only way for Lane to compensate Joan without getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I don't think any of them have the moral standing to get on a high horse regarding Joan's actions. And the "50s" code that all of them still live by is more concerned with sweeping unpleasantness under the carpet than with being "open" about it, the way someone of Megan's generation might be. We saw this in Season One when Peggy got pregnant and Don helped her cover it up and said something to her to the effect of "This never happened. You'll be amazed by how much this never happened." But I think that's more or less how they will all deal with how Joan became a partner - it just won't be talked about ever again.
     
  6. 93curr

    93curr Senior Member

    I just spent the whole episode feeling sorry for Sal. If the Jaguar guy had propositioned Joan himself and she'd said no, think they'd have fired her for it? Surely not.

    But, boy, are they ever going out of their way to emphasize just how much of a repugnant (yeah, I watched 'Veep' last night too) a-hole Pete really is. Even in a room full of ad men, he still manages to act even slimier than the average sleazeball. And Don's supposed to be be of the "good ones" just because he still believes that by walking out of a discussion he makes it disappear? Between Bert letting everyone know that Joan still has the option of saying "no" (how magnanimous to grant her such autonomy) and Don becoming petulent over the possibility of his wife having the option of saying "yes", no one came off particularly dignified.

    And here I thought this season was going to be all about race!
     
  7. butch

    butch Senior Member

    Location:
    ny
    The scene between Don and Peggy was priceless. Don's heart was put on the table with his passionate yet gallant kiss on Peggy's hand. Then his intrinsic hard cold business sense returned almost instantaneously. His response to Peggy's two week notice was a terse , a matter of fact, "we have other copywriters you can leave now", sort of command. Bittersweet,touching and brass tacks in one fell swoop. Kudos to Hamm for making that script come to life in such an inimitable way.

    It will interesting to hear someone state that Joan lied down for 5 % of the company. She was never an angel before BUT she crossed a line here. She didn't want a dime for Roger's baby yet will whore herself out to support the baby?! Unbelievable I tell you. It was amusing that Layne of all people joined in on the voting. You would think of his affection for Joan that he would have yielded yet he gave in. His rationale for voting for Joan's 5% was quite convoluted. Roger voting yes in favor of Joan's debasement was a little slap in the face wasn't it?In the end, that ladies man,Draper, restrained himself and abstained from voting. The cad is certainly learning to advance his thoughts about the opposite sex especially when it comes to Peggy and Joan.
    The repeated scene between Joan and Don was quite cleverly done with Don somewhat ironically called "the good one."It was quite a tender moment when Joan touched Don's face. Foreshadowing of a future affair or just an acknowledgment of Don's noble gesture?
     
  8. Hard Panner

    Hard Panner Baroque Popsike & Fuzz

    I thought Joan had said something along the line of "not a silent partner" in regards to the deal. I'll have to watch it again to be sure. And Pete loves to get credit and I just think that he'll want his name on the door *if* Joan gets her name up there.


    Am I the only one that thought Roger had feelings for Joan? I had a problem with Roger voting for this deal - with only Don protesting. I was half expecting Roger to stand up and punch Pete this time. I just can't see Roger voting for this deal.


    Good points, though I think Don will never look at Joan the same way again - there will never be scenes like last week's episode with Don and Joan in the bar. And, I can just see Pete bringing it up.
     
  9. albert_m

    albert_m Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atl., Ga, USA
    What an amazing episode.

    While Peggy is an important character to the show, it's very realistic that she would have moved on. having worked in agencies - and frankly it's not unlike other industries where people move on to grow - it makes sense that she would hit that point.

    For a show that has had several great episodes and powerful moments, this episode i think will rank among the top.
     
  10. 93curr

    93curr Senior Member

    Well, if they paid her the $50,000 his theft would have been discovered and if they don't get Jaguar his theft will be discovered so he needed some way to keep his financial indescretions hidden until at least the first quarter of next year. Convincing her that limited partnership was a better deal than cash was (he felt) his only viable option.
     
  11. Hard Panner

    Hard Panner Baroque Popsike & Fuzz

    The show is now in January 1967, correct? There was talk of Valentine's Day coming up.
     
  12. 93curr

    93curr Senior Member

    Well, Pete's aways going to be childish and petty about it. He'd look down on her for not doing it and he'll look down on her for doing it - either way, he'd going to use this as a justification to think less of her.

    Don's situation is more complex, as he's bound to have unresolved feelings knowing that his birth mother was a prostitute. And he hates to be reminded of how unscrupulous the business he's in really is. Joan's actions just make his own personal insecurities more literal. He might just end up resenting her for reminding him of a bunch of personal stuff he's uncomfortable dealing with.
     
  13. 93curr

    93curr Senior Member

    No, Bert still had to remind Lane that there would still be no bonuses for the partners this year, so it can't be Christmas 66 yet.
     
  14. Hard Panner

    Hard Panner Baroque Popsike & Fuzz

    Yep, totally agree on all points.
     
  15. Hard Panner

    Hard Panner Baroque Popsike & Fuzz

  16. carrick doone

    carrick doone Whhhuuuutttt????

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    There is also a bit of Don's ego here with Don repeating that the Creative work will win the day. Along with all of his own insecurities, I think he wanted this to be his shining moment. His disappointment at the aquisition is tied to that feeling - he will never know if it was his pitch that got Jaguar.

    And then he watches Peggy go. Loved the light shining on her face as she stepped into the elevator.
     
  17. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Is what Joan did really any different than what Jane did when Jane married Roger? With the difference that Jane had to have sex with a creepy older man for several years, not just once, before she got her payout. A few episodes ago, Megan's own father obliquely accused Megan of the same thing, saying to her something to the effect of "You took that man's [Don's] money and his apartment, instead of chasing your dreams." There seems to have been some element of love, at least initially, in Jane's and Megan's marriages to much older men, but, let's be honest, there's a financial element as well, those marriages involve trading money for sex to some degree.

    And to say that Joan never crossed that line before is wrong. I seem to recall Roger giving Joan expensive gifts during their affair(s) earlier in the series, but, more to the point, her doctor husband raped her before they were married, and she went ahead and married him anyway, because of the security and status he could provide to her when her relationship with Roger fell through when Roger cast his lot with the newer, younger, prettier Jane.

    Now, you could rightly observe that Joan's decision to go ahead and marry Dr. Rapist was her personal decision, and that that decision at least lacked the ick factor of Pete and the rest of the SCDP partners, minus Don, actively encouraging her to prostitute herself to Mr. Jaguar, but Joan's initial response to Pete's proposal rather quickly changed from "Are you crazy? Never." to "You can't afford it" when Pete asks her to name her price. Then Lane, afraid of getting caught in his own wrongdoing, names a price that makes it worth her while, and she does it.
     
  18. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    I think there are also some parallels between last week's story of Lakshmi and Paul in the Hare Krishna cult and this week's story of SCDP. Last week Lakshmi prostituted herself in an effort to further the cult's goals - i.e., keeping their best recruiter, Paul, in the fold. This week, Joan prostitutes herself to further SCDP's goals. Is SCDP a cult? There were hints of that last week, when Don gave his "You'll give up Christmas, you'll give up New Year's, you'll stay here and work until we get Jaguar, and it will be a defining moment" speech to the assembled employees, who clapped and cheered, as they pledged to give up their personal life in service of their charismatic leader. We saw hints of that this week, when Don literally couldn't believe that Peggy would leave the agency, even when she was telling him point blank that she was leaving. When you're the leader of a cult of personality, as Don is, it's almost impossible to believe that one of your protegés would ever leave. Peggy's internal struggle to leave Don, and SCDP, something she objectively probably should have done long ago, mirrored Paul's internal struggle to leave the Hare Krishnas: this week's secret meeting in a diner between Freddie Rumsen and Peggy, in which Freddie explained to Peggy that it was time for her to leave SCDP, was reminiscent of last week's secret meeting in a diner between Harry and Paul, in which Harry explained to Paul that it was time for him to leave the Hare Krishnas. With the key difference that Paul's ticket out of his cult, his Star Trek script, was terrible, and that Peggy's ticket out of her cult, her book of her work, was excellent.
     
  19. Marty Milton

    Marty Milton Senior Member

    Location:
    Urbana, Illinois
    I think it is January 1967 in the show. In last week's episode didn't Don say they would spend all their time after Christmas working on the Jaguar account pitch? If that is the case, I would think this is at least a couple of weeks after Christmas 1966.
     
  20. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Last week's episode was set in Christmas '66; in this week's episode, Peggy has to make a last-minute pitch to update the cologne? account's campaign for Valentine's Day '67. I don't think there's any way they could have done all that work on Jaguar and have the pitch meeting with Jaguar set up in the week between Christmas and New Year's, and nothing gets done in any business in the week between Christmas and New Year's anyway: I think it's pretty clear that we're in January '67.
     
  21. Hard Panner

    Hard Panner Baroque Popsike & Fuzz

    Yes, thought about that, also. Matthew Weiner showing that there's not much light between SCDP's 1950's approach to business and the Krishnas - 'cept the Brooks Brothers suits and an office in the Time-Life Building.

    Still bothered by Roger voting for this deal.
     
  22. Cheepnik

    Cheepnik Overfed long-haired leaping gnome

    Re the repeated scene between Don and Joan: Were we being led to believe the first time that he was cautioning her not to go through with the tryst it before it happened, and the second time being shown that the deed had already been done by the time Don showed up?
     
  23. Lonson

    Lonson I'm in the kitchen with the Tombstone Blues

    There's this to consider about Roger's "vote". . . . Roger is aware of his fathering Joan's child, and has volunteered help that was refused. Now his child's mother is a partner in the firm that was his father's. There's a continuity and a security in that for Roger, a man in his twilight years with a certain nostalgic perspective for his son's future. He can wish Joan did not have to do this, but he's a practical man who had shared Joan's favors outside of marriage and has accepted this side of the business world for some time. He knew it was her decision to make.
     
  24. Lonson

    Lonson I'm in the kitchen with the Tombstone Blues

    Yes.
     
  25. Marty Milton

    Marty Milton Senior Member

    Location:
    Urbana, Illinois
    I was confused by this, as well. I hope someone can clear this up for me.
     
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