What exactly is so horrible with the '99 remasters of Bowie's catalogue.

When I first heard, on this site, that these remasters were apparently horrible, I was stunned. I never thought they sounded all that bad, and Amazon didn't have any reviews complaining about sound for any if the albums. (You guys should really warn people about such things. Just saying.) I know they are reportedly no noised and brick walled, but there are only a few songs that I personally think sound a bit messed up.
My question isn't really what's in the title, I guess, but instead, "Can I get some evidence that these remasters are worse than previous ones?" Maybe some A/B tests, or dynamic range comparisons? I know there are numerous threads about this, but any clips are usually in expired links and dynamic range values are never present.

Thanks to anyone who helps.

 

I own none of them but do own all of the Ryko remasters along with some of the Ryko vinyl from the very early 90s. The vinyl were done analog and they sound fabulous. What my complaint about the '99 remasters was their elimination of both the bonus material and rare photos that made Bowie's decision to release with Ryko but amazing and valuable to fans.

 

They're not brickwalled. To me, they sound completely off though. Very weird eq choices. Almost all of them have a deep low-mid suckout and rather nasty bass boost. Unnatural sound.

 

comparing the '99 EMIs to the Rykos is like comparing bad apples to bad oranges. the Ryko vinyl sounds "fabulous"? that's a first.

the '99s are not as bad as they're made out to be, but they're mastered by one guy (the recently retired Peter Mew) whose EQ choices are not to everyone's taste. thus if you don't like the sound of one, it's unlikely you'll like the sound of any. i don't think there's much brickwalling going on, but i've not analysed them much given that i don't care for the sound enough to bother. in the plus column, they do all appear to have been sourced from master tapes, something that can't be said for all the Ryko titles or all the original RCA CD releases. in Mew's defence, he did get a second chance with a few titles and things improved considerably. the most recent Station To Station and 1969 self-titled (aka Space Oddity) are very decent sounding if not revelatory.

generally speaking but with several caveats, the original '80s RCA CDs are preferred by those who grew up with the vinyl (and for most of that group, vinyl remains the way to hear Bowie) and the "audiophile community" who like the warmer analogue sound over the skewed EQs of the Rykos and EMIs. however, the RCAs are a mixed bag and can be expensive. if you have any desire to check them out, i prepared a pdf describing key differences between the German and Japanese-made RCA CDs. they are not a safe blind-buy.

the catalogue is large. if you want to compare different issues, it might be best to select personal favourite tracks from favourite albums and go from there. if then you find you still prefer the 1999 issue, you're set. i'm sure others can help, but i think i have every digital issue of every album, so it won't be difficult to put comparison samples together.

 

If you could, I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

as i said it's a big catalogue... could you name a favourite track or album to start with?

 

"Heroes" is my favourite song. Then, "Rebel Rebel" is one of the songs that did sound off, to me.

 

as a visual level comparison, here are waveforms of the digital issues of the track "Heroes", quietest to loudest. the 1999 may not be brickwalled but it's been compressed and has the lowest DR value.

DR values (for the track "Heroes")
RCA JPN for US DR13
RCA Germany DR13
EMI 1990 DR11
Ryko 1990 DR11
Ryko Au20 DR11
EMI 1999 DR9

 

Thank you! Can you, please, show us pics of frequency spectrum too? It!s nice to meet here someone willing to show the graphs.

 

can't understand the "fear" of graphs shown by some, but that's an argument for another day. i have some "real life" to attend to, but i'll post the Rebel Rebel waveforms and DR values once i'm back.

 

Here are the DR values for the 99 remasters I have:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed folder: C:\Users\Matt\Music\iTunes\iTunes Media\Music\David Bowie\Hunky Dory\
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR10 -0.39 dB -14.27 dB 01 Changes.wav
DR10 -0.78 dB -15.67 dB 02 Oh! You Pretty Things.wav
DR14 -2.36 dB -21.66 dB 03 Eight Line Poem.wav
DR9 -0.38 dB -11.98 dB 04 Life On Mars?.wav
DR11 -0.41 dB -14.61 dB 05 Kooks.wav
DR10 -0.61 dB -14.40 dB 06 Quicksand.wav
DR12 -1.15 dB -16.18 dB 07 Fill Your Heart.wav
DR12 -0.89 dB -15.33 dB 08 Andy Warhol.wav
DR10 -0.12 dB -12.87 dB 09 Song For Bob Dylan.wav
DR10 -1.17 dB -12.50 dB 10 Queen Bitch.wav
DR12 -0.75 dB -18.21 dB 11 The Bewlay Brothers.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11
Official DR value: DR11

==============================================================================================

The Rise And Fall Of Ziggy Stardust And The Spiders From Mars
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -1.13 dB -13.53 dB 01 Five Years.wav
DR10 -0.99 dB -14.57 dB 02 Soul Love.wav
DR10 -0.84 dB -13.11 dB 03 Moonage Daydream.wav
DR10 -0.92 dB -13.66 dB 04 Starman.wav
DR10 -0.87 dB -15.19 dB 05 It Ain't Easy.wav
DR12 -0.93 dB -14.92 dB 06 Lady Stardust.wav
DR10 -0.52 dB -12.05 dB 07 Star.wav
DR10 -0.80 dB -12.08 dB 08 Hang On To Yourself.wav
DR11 -0.44 dB -12.86 dB 09 Ziggy Stardust.wav
DR10 -0.22 dB -11.84 dB 10 Suffragette City.wav
DR10 -0.95 dB -15.29 dB 11 Rock & Roll Suicide.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11
Official DR value: DR10

==============================================================================================

Aladdin Sane
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR8 -0.91 dB -10.03 dB 01 Watch That Man.wav
DR9 -0.93 dB -11.49 dB 02 Aladdin Sane (1913-1938-197?).wav
DR8 -1.01 dB -10.73 dB 03 Drive In Saturday.wav
DR8 -0.99 dB -10.03 dB 04 Panic In Detroit.wav
DR8 -0.61 dB -10.34 dB 05 Cracked Actor.wav
DR8 -0.64 dB -10.69 dB 06 Time.wav
DR9 -1.15 dB -11.58 dB 07 Prettiest Star.wav
DR8 -1.08 dB -10.57 dB 08 Let's Spend The Night Together.wav
DR8 -0.99 dB -10.31 dB 09 The Jean Genie.wav
DR9 -1.15 dB -12.21 dB 10 Lady Grinning Soul.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 10
Official DR value: DR8

==============================================================================================

Pin Ups----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR10 -0.97 dB -11.79 dB 01 Rosalyn.wav
DR9 -0.72 dB -11.42 dB 02 Here Comes The Night.wav
DR9 -0.53 dB -10.89 dB 03 I Wish You Would.wav
DR9 -0.84 dB -12.78 dB 04 See Emily Play.wav
DR9 -0.81 dB -11.65 dB 05 Everything's Alright.wav
DR10 -0.96 dB -12.39 dB 06 I Can't Explain.wav
DR9 -0.70 dB -12.33 dB 07 Friday On My Mind.wav
DR10 -0.92 dB -13.58 dB 08 Sorrow.wav
DR10 -0.78 dB -12.12 dB 09 Don't Bring Me Down.wav
DR10 -0.90 dB -12.25 dB 10 Shapes Of Things.wav
DR9 -0.74 dB -11.56 dB 11 Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere.wav
DR10 -0.87 dB -12.12 dB 12 Where Have All the Good Times Gon.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 12
Official DR value: DR9

==============================================================================================

Diamond Dogs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -1.51 dB -15.22 dB 01 Future Legend.wav
DR9 -0.84 dB -11.25 dB 02 Diamond Dogs.wav
DR9 -0.19 dB -12.40 dB 03 Sweet Thing.wav
DR9 -1.15 dB -12.21 dB 04 Candidate.wav
DR9 -0.98 dB -12.51 dB 05 Sweet Thing (Reprise).wav
DR11 -0.75 dB -12.69 dB 06 Rebel Rebel.wav
DR10 -0.93 dB -12.69 dB 07 Rock 'n' Roll With Me.wav
DR11 -0.44 dB -13.96 dB 08 We Are The Dead.wav
DR10 -1.15 dB -12.91 dB 09 1984.wav
DR9 -1.06 dB -13.30 dB 10 Big Brother.wav
DR10 -0.95 dB -13.50 dB 11 Chant Of The Ever Circling Skelet.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11
Official DR value: DR10

==============================================================================================

Young Americans
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR9 -0.71 dB -12.13 dB 01 Young Americans.wav
DR10 -0.87 dB -13.50 dB 02 Win.wav
DR9 -0.93 dB -11.68 dB 03 Fascination.wav
DR9 -0.22 dB -11.52 dB 04 Right.wav
DR10 -0.92 dB -12.51 dB 05 Somebody Up There Likes Me.wav
DR10 -0.82 dB -12.94 dB 06 Across The Universe.wav
DR10 -0.83 dB -13.34 dB 07 Can You Hear Me.wav
DR12 -0.35 dB -14.98 dB 08 Fame.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 8
Official DR value: DR10

==============================================================================================

Station To Station
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR12 -0.89 dB -15.28 dB 01 Station To Station.wav
DR11 -1.15 dB -14.28 dB 02 Golden Years.wav
DR12 -0.94 dB -14.68 dB 03 Word On A Wing.wav
DR11 -0.99 dB -14.60 dB 04 TVC 15.wav
DR12 -0.71 dB -15.09 dB 05 Stay.wav
DR11 -0.69 dB -15.04 dB 06 Wild Is The Wind.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 6
Official DR value: DR11

==============================================================================================

Low
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR11 -1.15 dB -13.55 dB 01 Speed Of Life.wav
DR13 -0.84 dB -16.44 dB 02 Breaking Glass.wav
DR11 -0.88 dB -13.29 dB 03 What In The World.wav
DR11 -0.83 dB -14.34 dB 04 Sound And Vision.wav
DR11 -1.16 dB -13.86 dB 05 Always Crashing In The Same Car.wav
DR11 -0.98 dB -13.23 dB 06 Be My Wife.wav
DR12 -1.16 dB -14.99 dB 07 A New Career In A New Town.wav
DR8 -1.15 dB -12.56 dB 08 Warszawa.wav
DR11 -1.16 dB -14.44 dB 09 Art Decade.wav
DR10 -1.17 dB -14.78 dB 10 Weeping Wall.wav
DR10 -1.15 dB -13.51 dB 11 Subterraneans.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11
Official DR value: DR11

==============================================================================================

"Heroes"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR10 -0.41 dB -11.98 dB 01 Beauty And The Beast.wav
DR9 -0.75 dB -11.38 dB 02 Joe The Lion.wav
DR9 -0.70 dB -11.21 dB 03 "Heroes".wav
DR9 -0.74 dB -10.85 dB 04 Sons Of The Silent Age.wav
DR9 -0.28 dB -10.85 dB 05 Blackout.wav
DR9 -0.46 dB -11.16 dB 06 V-2 Schneider.wav
DR9 -1.15 dB -15.07 dB 07 Sense Of Doubt.wav
DR8 -1.19 dB -13.11 dB 08 Moss Garden.wav
DR11 -1.17 dB -16.10 dB 09 Neukoln.wav
DR9 -0.24 dB -11.65 dB 10 The Secret Life Of Arabia.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 10
Official DR value: DR9

==============================================================================================

Lodger
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR10 -1.15 dB -13.43 dB 01 Fantastic Voyage.wav
DR10 -1.15 dB -12.76 dB 02 African Night Flight.wav
DR10 -1.07 dB -12.10 dB 03 Move On.wav
DR11 -1.15 dB -14.43 dB 04 Yassassin (Long Live).wav
DR9 -0.84 dB -11.55 dB 05 Red Sails.wav
DR9 -1.14 dB -11.76 dB 06 D.J..wav
DR10 -1.16 dB -12.33 dB 07 Look Back In Anger.wav
DR9 -1.15 dB -11.90 dB 08 Boys Keep Swinging.wav
DR11 -1.17 dB -14.40 dB 09 Repetition.wav
DR11 -1.15 dB -14.67 dB 10 Red Money.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 10
Official DR value: DR10

==============================================================================================

 

You've been on this forum too long when you read the title of this thread and ask "There's been that many?"

The '99 remasters sound ok to me. Old RCA bowie vinyl sounded a tad thin to me in the 70's and 80's so I never bought the original RCA CDs- I might have had an early one, but don't remember being that impressed, then got a few RYKOs, ultimately getting the Virgin EMIs for the SACD. I pretty much bought this stuff enough over the years. I can live with the EMIs. It might just be that some compression does this catalog good...

 

here's request #2, "Rebel Rebel". in all cases these are from CD issues of the Diamond Dogs album, unless noted.

DR values
RCA JPN for US ChangesOneBowie (and all but identical JPN for JPN R32P) DR13
RCA JPN for US DR12
RCA Germany ChangesOneBowie DR13
RCA Germany DR13
Ryko/EMI 1990 DR12
Ryko/EMI 1990 ChangesBowie DR13
Ryko Au20 DR11
EMI 1999 DR11
EMI Best Of Bowie DR11

 

I have a pretty killer setup to judge vinyl/digital sound quality. Bowie gave Ryko, as did Frank Zappa (and if you try to convince me that Frank knew nothing about quality sound and would allow ANYONE to release his music ((Same with Bowie)) that didn't meet his standards... I'd say you don't know what you're talking about) access to analog sources for the releases.... The amount of bonus material speaks to that. Am I happy with the low quality transparent vinyl, no. Do I think the sound on both the CDs and Ryko vinyl are BETTER than the domestic RCA releases up to the switch to EMI for Let's Dance, yes, by a country mile.

Sound System:
VPI Aries I
McIntosh C2300/MC-275
Nordost Interconnects/Speaker cabling
Cardas/Nordost power treatment and cables
Sonus Faber Cremona Monitor speakers
Apple Snow leopard server
Ayre QB-9 DAC
...have a McIntosh CD player as well

 

I agree that the '99 remasters aren't nearly as bad as some people make out (but to each his own). I've done a few a/b comparisons between the '99s and the Rycos recently. I agree that they sound a little bit different, but I have a hard time saying which one is better. The '99s are a little bit compressed, at least in some cases, but I wouldn't say they are "brickwalled." I know there is a lot of complaints about the noise reduction too; I would guess this varies from album to album.

 

It's not fear...it's the fact some of us listen with our ears and not our eyes. YMMV.

 

Using graphs and waveforms as a substitute for listening is indeed rather odd.

However, they are extremely valuable in trying to figure out why releases sound different, or why one mastering sounds "off" compared to another.

 

Do you have any sound samples?

 

They certainly aren't even close to brick-walled - the occasional peak may be shaved. However, noise reduction was used and they were equalised to be a bit bright. I still prefer them to the Rykos - hated what Dr Toby did to those.

 

They also provide something FACTUAL to go off of. Forum opinion is very important, but sometimes when someone says that something is "too bright" or some other statement it's nice to be able to confirm this FACTUALLY...which spectrum analysis can do. I think that's where a lot of people become so offended by graphs and spectrum analysis. It can PROVE certain statements such as "louder" or "they boosted the bass" as being factually WRONG which people don't like. I've "sensed" that certain other masterings of CDs had a treble boost or other such anomaly only to prove myself totally incorrect later. We can and often DO hear what we want to hear, and what others tell us we should be hearing. I don't think that happens a majority of the time here on the forum but it DOES and has happened.

I have a few of these in original RCA, Ryko, and 1999 versions. I will try to do some spectrum analysis tonight to provide some facts around what is going on from an EQ point of view.

Edit sorry about all the emphasized capitalization on words in this post...I don't know what's wrong with me today.

 

Fair enough.

 

Big Bowie fan. Have the Ryko's, Some RCA's, and the Japanese Mini's. I like the 99 masters (which is what the mini's used pre SHM). The Ryko's had extra tracks which were much missed, and some different packaging - but on the other hand the EMI ones had the lyrics, which is always nice to have. I admit, I've not played a Ryko for some time. They didn't sound good, they were too thin. Of course, many of these have also had Special Editions out - which I also own.... --lol--

 

matters not as it's mostly subjective but i disagree with all of this. Bowie is hardly concerned with sound quality and on one of the rare occasions when he has voiced an opinion he expressed dissatisfaction with the Rykos. the bonus material on the Rykos is very patchy with some poor source tapes, which are easily found from superior masters elsewhere. they also used incorrect tapes here and there and made their own inaccurate edits for their compilations. whatever revelations were assumed back then (and i was as eager a customer as any) have long since been overshadowed. as for preferring the Ryko to the RCAs... all a matter of opinion but one i cannot fathom unless you unluckily picked up just the few flawed US issues.

but the OP was looking for comparisons and DR readings, thus waveforms are wholly appropriate to this thread. i'm pretty sure anyone posting a waveform is aware of what it can't show, but equally, we understand how they provide evidence of limiting, compression and other aspects of the sound.

the SHMs use the 1999s (except for ziggy stardust which uses the corrected 30th anniversary master).

 

I bought most of the 99 reissues on one day, when I saw then all on display for 5 pounds each. I hadn't bought any Bowie on cd before that. I got them home, and started with Heroes. I immediately thought it sounded very wrong. I messed about with the stereo, but it felt like trying to scratch an unreachable itch. it would sound good, if i could just adjust...but I never quite could. I thought the others varied. heroes was actually the worst, and for me, Low was the best. hunky dory was bearable, and Ziggy just about ok. Station to Station was very poor, so much that it made me doubt myself for ever liking the album at all. Getting an orange label vinyl of Station, I was able to remember why I loved it.

Funnily, on my next visit to that shop, they were playing Heroes, and it sounded great. I went home, and gave it another go. Still horrible. Maybe they had the most expensive CD player ever?

 

no, they have the magic record shop button that makes even crappy remasters sound good in-store. it's next to the magic light switch that makes scratches on used vinyl disappear until you get the record home.