Classical Corner Classical Music Corner (thread #50)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by George P, Sep 29, 2013.

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  1. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Yes, I get that from one of the reviews. If Mackerras comes across faster than Zinman I might consider this a mistake. But at least the Scots won't be subjecting the listener to those old instruments like Woger the Dodger et al in your list of persona non grata did.
     
  2. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    To the best of my knowledge, most if not all extant HIP Beethoven Symphonies cycles were recorded by British conductors - Hogwood, Gardiner, Norrington and Goodman and I have every cycle except the one by Norrington. I also do not believe Mackerras was ever a believer or practitioner of HIP performances ...

    I am still trying to locate Mackerras' first recording of Handel Messiah on CD, which I have on Angels, which as most folks who are into LP's know, does not exactly have the best press quality.
     
  3. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    I would be interested in getting the Mackerras also, now that I 've spent some more time reading the reviews. The only drawback (or not) seems to be that the performances are a little "unpolished" and the sound not ideal, being live and all.
    Mackerras has another set with RLO, which is cheaper and has gotten also some good reviews.
    http://www.amazon.com/Nine-Symphonies-Bryn-Terfel/dp/B00006J3LK/ref=pd_sim_m_29
     
  4. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Mackerras is akin to Zinman in that he pays attention to the historical research—bowings, general notions of phrasing, size of forces, tempos, the difference between a late 19th century "Adagio" and an early 19th century "Adagio." This is all in an attempt to get closer to the sound that an audience of the time of the music's creation would recognize. Some people get rather extreme in their opinions of these things, as if the rabble has been allowed into the concert hall.

    Seriously, this is 2013, get a grip.
     
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  5. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I have most if not all Mackerras' Mozarts on Linn Records and they are uniformly excellent IMO ...
     
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  6. mkolesa

    mkolesa Forum Resident

    re. the metronome markings in beethoven... what if it's all a wild goose chase???:
    http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartnews/2013/09/was-beethovens-metronome-wrong/
    and maybe that's why there's a performance tradition of beethoven that's at odds with the markings as published.
     
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  7. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    I get what you're saying, and, indeed, I found the Zinman recordings very good, if not exceptional. I have, in the past moments, ordered a used copy of this Mack set for $32 shipped from California.

    As for the info on the earlier set on Classics For Pleasure, that might be a nice afterthought, but the quality of CFP records has always been hit or miss.

    And, as for the sound on this set seeing as it was recorded LIVE outside, I've often found these to have enjoyable sound on my vintage equipment. With 100 tube watts/channel into my very sensitive speaker system, I can achieve almost live levels, and those sounds some may consider a hindrance heighten the ruse that the record producers were able to create.
     
  8. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    You won't get any argument from me on that. Despite some quibble some have with the Pizarro Beethoven PCs, I find these to be just what I hoped they would be. I feel as if anything I buy from Linn will be of this superb quality.
     
  9. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Now Listening To

    Sibelius. Symphony 4 and Tapiola. Maazel. UK Decca Wideband.

    Probably the best sonically and right up there in terms of performance. Tapiola is particularly good.

    sib4.jpg
     
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  10. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    A big part of the "Performance Tradition" problem is that these works were written for smaller ensembles and smaller venues than the "Superorchestras" of the Twentieth Century. Playing Schubert's Ninth in tempo with smaller forces makes the brass parts stronger and the rhythmic profile firmer. When a Wilhelm Furtwängler or a Bruno Walter plays this music with a full string complement and Brucknerian tempos, a different beast emerges. Similarly, playing the Eroica at tempo will come as a shock. Give Zinman points for that. So many interpreters of this music work to emphasize the revolutionary aspects of Beethoven's op. 55 that the local music context—more like Haydn and Rossini than Bruckner or Wagner—is lost. A lot of the performance traditions we know emerged as the size of orchestras, audiences and halls grew. A lot of those traditions ended up distorting the intent of the composer in obvious and dramatic ways.
     
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  11. alankin1

    alankin1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philly
    J.S. Bach – French Overture, Italian Overture, Four Duets, Two Capriccios
    Angela Hewitt (Hyperion)


    [​IMG]
     
  12. alankin1

    alankin1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philly
    Ludwig van Beethoven – Sonatas for Piano and VIolin No. 5 Op.24 "Spring", No.6 Op30/1, No.7 Op.30/2
    — Jascha Heifetz, Emmanuel Bay, piano (RCA Red Seal / Sony)


    [​IMG]
     
  13. WHitese

    WHitese Senior Member

    Location:
    North Bergen, NJ
    This CD is incredible...great interplay between Viola D'Amore and Violoncello. And as ECM usual, very well recorded.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    That is it. It is incredible. It is the best recording of that symphony on record IMO. I have heard many other versions. His tempo is perfect and slower than most other versions. The playing is first rate.
     
  15. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    I'd say the same of his Tchaikovsky 6 on DG.
     
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  16. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Unless we return to the forces And venues of the original performances, we are creating a different sonic result. To play with small forces in a large hall is a distortion as much as a large orchestra in a small or big hall. Thus we have a dilemma since today's venues and orchestras are what they are (and the modern audiences are quite different as well). In addition, the performance techniques of wind instruments and thus players have altered so much that we are not going to get authentic performance there IMO. Before Boehm, wind and brass players had multiple instruments to play in different keys, all of which they had extensive practice on. This is where notions of orchestral key color came in despite equal temperament tuning. The tonal characteristics were different on each. Do modern players forget Boehm and just play with the older instruments? That is why I am content with historical sensitivity and don't desire "authenticity".
     
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  17. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    Well, because this is a rather peculiar audiophile forum. I think of it, at least in this corner of the operation, as being more of a music forum frequented by music lovers aware of audiophile issues. For my part (as I just recently noted in the "off topic" forum), I came here because I stumbled across a discussion of 78 RPM records and acoustic phonographs. Hardly the sort of thing one would generally expect if audiophilia were the alpha and the omega of the venue. For me, and I suspect for many here, the issue isn't "how good was the original recording" but rather "how can I play this to get the best results possible even if the recording falls short of ideal." Particularly considering that in classical recordings the most compelling performances so rarely appear in the technically best recordings.

    I don't own it, but from what I've heard on WETA Abbado's second set from Berlin has much to commend it. Might be worth a listen to offset that dreadful Man K.

    Has anyone here heard Lorin Maazel's cycle on Columbia? I have a copy that I blush to admit I've never gotten around to playing; I bought it on the strength of a comment on the old CLASSM-L mailing list (this gives you an idea of how long ago) that the vocal component of the 9th sym. was, in the subscriber's opinion, the best she'd heard on records. (I remember Jon Vickers is involved; don't remember the other soloists.) Ordinarily I don't find Maazel all that compelling, but that doesn't mean it's impossible he rose above what I've heard elsewhere in this set, I suppose.
     
  18. George P

    George P Notable Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    If I had the money, I'd buy y'all a copy of Wand's RCA studio set. I really think those performances are a special achievement. The sound is damn good too!
     
  19. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Yes, I think it was the late seventies, I was working at Odyssey Records in Berkeley, about to close right under my feet—I lived upstairs. You didn't miss a thing.
     
  20. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Not to mention flogging all the choirboys before and after the performances. And certain odd sub-traditions in the Early Musick scene created new quirks, requiring air quotes whenever the term "Authentic" was used. Harnoncourt should have started out conducting Bruckner and Beethoven, he's too heavy handed for Handel. But some stuff works out. When I was recording for SFEMS their biggest regular venue held 1000 with a balcony, otherwise venues were no larger than 600 seats. Anyway, the problems on the hardware side don't really get crazy until Beethoven. He probably didn't really know what he wanted, he certainly couldn't hear it being performed anyway.
     
  21. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I assume this Beethoven quote was something he said: When the spirit moves me do you think I worry about your puling little fiddle? So I think he knew what he wanted but was not optimistic about getting it. But your point is even broader. Did Bach prefer boy singers in the chorus or would he prefer regular women's voices. Would he have wanted one singer per part if they had offered him 6 per part? etc etc. Often tradition is just another word for making do.
     
  22. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    And, as regards the tradition of performing Handel's "Messiah" with far too many voices in the choir, we can blame the composer.
     
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  23. vanhooserd

    vanhooserd Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville,TN
    012.JPG
    HIP Brahms from 1990. an essay by Norrington makes a good case for small-band Brahms, but the results don't impress me.
    muddy sound doesn't help. the price was right, though.
     
  24. 5-String

    5-String μηδὲν ἄγαν

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    I have the LP of the 9 and I think that it is very good. The Cleveland Orchestra is at great form and the singing is excellent. Talvela rules in this recording.
    It's been a while since I listened to it, but I remember that there are some problems with the recording, instances where the balance between the orchestra and the choir was off and such.
     
  25. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I actually prefer Beethoven Symphonies performed on modern instruments. I purchased the 4 sets of HIP recordings somewhat out of curiosity.
     
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