Kirmuss Vinyl cleaner surfactant issue

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by john couture, Sep 14, 2021.

  1. john couture

    john couture New Member Thread Starter

    hi. new user to the Kirmuss vinyl restoration unit.
    in the online demonstration videos, we see the surfactant being brushed in a white "toothpaste"-like substance coming out of the record.
    when I ordered my machine, it came with a spray bottle full of surfactant and a refill bottle.
    I started using the system, and saw the white substance just like in the videos. once the spray bottle was empty, I refilled it and continued cleaning. I didn't see any more white substance...I just assumed that the new batch of records simply didn't have any of that grunge in them (as not ALL records will have it)...so on I went. Fast forward a week later after I ordered some additional supplies, including surfactant refill. It came with another spray bottle, pre-filled. I started using it and BOOM! more white stuff, like immediately.
    rather curious, I went back to some of the records I cleaned earlier that did *not* have white stuff come out...applied the new spray-bottle surfactant and there was the toothpaste again. I tried this on 5 separate records, following the instructions to the letter...each time the "refill" surfactant had zero toothpast-like material and each time *with the same records*, the spray bottle surfactant worked exactly like in the videos.
    I tried opening a second bottle of refill...same exact result. Clearly whatever is in the refill bottle is not the same as what is in the initial spray bottle. weird huh? I made a video, sent it to Charles Kirmuss and he says this is something he has never heard of.
    question to any Kirmuss cleaner owners...has this ever happened to you?
    thanks
     
  2. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    Yes, it happened to me.

    Some of the LPs that I cleaned with the original bottle, which was included with my machine (bought in 2018) had that toothpaste like substance you are referring to. Shortly afterwards, I ordered 5-6 additional spray bottles of the surfactant, and nothing. Additionally, I ordered the big bottle of surfactant a few weeks ago, and once again, nothing.

    A lot of my records were fairly clean to begin with, as I have another a 2nd ultrasonic machine. That being said, I haven’t seen the white, toothpaste like substance in 3 years.
     
  3. Drew769

    Drew769 Buyer of s*** I never knew I lacked

    Location:
    NJ
    That paste thing never sat well with me. That and the royal PIA of the cleaning regimen and the fact that it takes 15-20 minutes a record to clean it is what made me trade it in on a new Degritter.

    When Kirmuss demo’d his unit at CAP a few years ago, he did 5 or 6 cycles with his machine and couldn’t get the paste to go away. He scoffed at the notion that the solution was the cause of the paste and blamed earlier cleaners (?). Then he shifted gears and said it was the release compound. Then he said it was a byproduct of the vinyl itself. Whatever it is, I saw it on my cartridge if I didn’t take every step necessary to remove it. I’m 99% sure that the surfactant is the cause of the paste. If I used the Kirmuss without his surfactant, no paste would appear. Maybe that is the solution.

    I also got much better results when I did a final rinse and vacuum on my Nitty Gritty. It’s counter intuitive to what Kirmuss preaches, but it works and it’s easier.

    Perhaps Kirmuss users should try the Degritter cleaner/surfactant solution, in the proper proportion to the Kirmuss tank (which is much larger)?
     
    JHC3 and Tommyboy like this.
  4. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Can anyone who has tried cleaning a record several times confirm if the paste appears again or not?
     
  5. john couture

    john couture New Member Thread Starter

    interesting. have you contacted Kirmuss to get replacement surfactant? perhaps there's an ongoing issue that they are not aware of??
     
  6. PopularChuck

    PopularChuck Senior Member

    Location:
    Bay Area
    I bought a Kirmuss earlier this year. I don't recall how many records I cleaned with the bottle that came with my unit, but I never saw the fabled toothpaste. I've always kinda wondered WTF about the whole toothpaste thing TBH.

    I wasn't about to spend $80 for a bottle of that stuff when it goes so quickly, so I switched to using L'art du Son before running records thought the distilled water and alcohol mixture recommended by Kirmuss. For older records, I follow that with one scrubbing using Auto Desk Systeme solution and another run through the Kirmuss.

    This system works beautifully for me.
     
  7. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    I saw it sort-of on one older LP. Frothy, foamy, but no where near what was on the video.

    I do have another question for Kirmuss users however: I’ve had the Kirmuss ultra sonic unit since spring and it seems to do a good job. The tank gets filled with approx 1.75 gal distilled water and 40ml of 70% isopropyl. The directions state that a tank can clean around 25 LPs, or until cloudy. It all depends on how dirty or clean they are. Makes sense. However, the directions also state to dump it at the end of the day, never keep it overnight. I wonder what that’s all about? Charles doesn’t make any money on the tank fluid, I get the water at Menards and the alcohol from Walgreens.

    It would be great to make a tank of fluid, clean a few Sat morning, maybe do a few Sat eve, do a few more Sun morning and a few more in the eve. Doing a bunch all in a session takes a whole day and then some. I’ve been at it since 11:00. It’s 5:30 now, and with a short lunch break, a quick walk with the dog, I’ve just got 13 discs cleaned. I’d like to get 6 more done but I’m getting tired and want to watch Netflix or maybe actually listen to some vinyl!

    So how many people keep the tank solution for a couple of days before dumping?
     
  8. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    When you use the Kirmuss, what do you put in the tank, and what do you spray on the LP between the cleaning runs?
     
  9. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    I use tergikleen, that e-bay stuff. One 5min run and wipe dry. I'm satisfied.
     
  10. PopularChuck

    PopularChuck Senior Member

    Location:
    Bay Area
    First I apply L'art d' son (mixed per the manufacturers instructions) to the record with a MoFi brush. I apply it to one side, let it sit for 3 to 5 minutes, then flip the record and do the other side.

    I fill the Kirmuss with distilled water and add 40 ml of 70 percent isopropyl alcohol per the Kirmuss instructions. I run the records for a five minute cycle to rinse.

    If they're really grimy, I'll spray them with a mixture I found in a review of the Kirmuss. IIRC, the recipe makes five liters - half a bottle of Auto Desk Systeme fluid mixed with five liters distilled water. I pour a bit into a small spray bottle and add about a dropper-full of propylene glycol, per that same recipe, to add a bit of "body" or "bulk" to the solution. I'll spray that on the record and go over it with the brush that came with the Kirmuss, then run the record through one more ultrasonic rinse.

    I'll see if I can find that link for the recipe to replace the stupidly, criminally overpriced Kirmuss solution. (edit: You can find the recipe here. Scroll down to the section that says "an alternative surfactant." That said, the entire review is excellent and is worth reading. It's in two parts. Here's part one.)

    That said, I'm finding that the Art du Son does such a great job I rarely need the added spray step.

    In the future, if I do another large batch of records, I may simply add an entire bottle of Autodesk System fluid to the distilled water in the Kirmuss (essentially using the recipe used in the Autodesk Systeme ultrasonic cleaner in the Kirmuss) and skip the spray/scrub step.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
    coolhandjjl likes this.
  11. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    Just finished Part 1. Excellent!! Thanks for your help in all of this :)
     
    PopularChuck likes this.
  12. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    The tough part is deciding how much propylene glycol to add to the Audio Disc Systeme fluid. I’m having a hard time figuring out how much an eyedropper is and how big the spray bottle is. I’m more of an ‘add 10ml of this to 200ml of that’ kind of guy.
     
  13. PopularChuck

    PopularChuck Senior Member

    Location:
    Bay Area
    I use the small spray bottle that came with the Kirmuss and originally held his overpriced surfactant. I fill it with the Autodesk Systeme solution and then add one standard eyedropper of the propylene glycol. It's a regular eyedropper I bought at Walgreens or CVS.

    I wouldn't worry about being precise. You won't screw it up. As best I can tell, the propylene glycol is just to thicken the solution a bit so it doesn't atomize as much coming out if the spray bottle. It won't hurt anything, and you're gonna rinse it all off anyway in the ultrasonic cleaner.
     
    coolhandjjl likes this.
  14. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    Based on the linked articles, I can definitely see skipping the Kirmuss final care steps. But I see no reason not to give the LP a light wipe with the microfiber cloth after I give the LP a gentle flex to shake off any excess water still on the surface after I pull it out of the unit. The bathroom I clean them in has a bunch of towel hooks spaced perfectly apart on a wall so I can rest a bunch of LP’s there for a few minutes for a final dry.
     
  15. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    Here’s my setup. No comments on the wallpaper please :laugh: or the mirror…
    [​IMG]

    Drying racks. Existing towel hooks aligned perfect for this!
    [​IMG]

    Newer units ship with this 33.33 base to set the LP on for spraying, wiping, etc
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2021
    PopularChuck likes this.
  16. PopularChuck

    PopularChuck Senior Member

    Location:
    Bay Area
    When I pull my records out if the Kirmuss, I spray both sides with plain distilled water from a spray bottle I bought at Home Depot. Then I wipe them gently with the soft cloths that originally came with my Spin Clean and lay them on a clean, soft towel. I let let one side air dry, wipe it gently with an eyeglasses cloth, then flip it and let the other side air dry. One last wipe with the eyeglasses cloth and the record goes on the turntable or into a MoFi sleeve.

    I'm probably excessively OCD with this, bit I enjoy the process.
     
  17. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    I’ve a few fussy new LPs that I’d like to try more variation of cleaning on before I chalk them off to bad pressings. I think I’ll try the big Mofi brush with some L'Art du Son, let it dry, then send that into the Kirmuss like you mentioned.
     
  18. PopularChuck

    PopularChuck Senior Member

    Location:
    Bay Area
    I've been very impressed with L'Art du Son.

    As I've gotten further down the record cleaning rabbit hole, I've come to think Kirmuss is a bit... well, let's just say offbeat in some of his views and approaches to record cleaning. I never once saw the famed "toothpaste," and I always thought his obsession with the idea records carry mold wasn't really based on any evidence I've ever read or heard.

    That said, his machine is relatively inexpensive as far as ultrasonic cleaners go, and the mechanism by which it spins record is pretty smart. (I bought mine from Upscale Audio, which offers an optional mechanism with three slots for full-size records.)

    I've been quite happy with the results using L'Art du Son and the Kirmuss as an ultrasonic rinse.

    My advice - experiment, and don't get too caught up on whether you've got the "recipe" right. You'll find a system that delivers the results you want

    For me, it's all part of the fun of the hobby.
     
    iloveguitars likes this.
  19. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    Three slots would overwhelm me. I have a hard time keeping just two discs properly cycled through :D

    I wish there was a Kirmuss master thread here or over at AK.
     
    wes4usc likes this.
  20. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    All detergents are surfactants, but not all surfactants are detergents.... :D
     
  21. ogdens_sliced

    ogdens_sliced Walnut Plug

    Location:
    Albion
    White lab coat and a bunch of pens in the breast pocket will help with toothpaste abaitment.

    If it doesn't, then just blame it on everything but the machine and method.

    Sounds familiar....
     
    shawnwes and patient_ot like this.
  22. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    I ordered some L’Art du Son and a Mofi brush. The brush just came, I wish it were 1/2” longer. With my previous method using the little Kirmuss goat hair brush, I never thoroughly got the lead-in and lead-out grooves, they seemed to get cracklier after a cleaning. Was hoping the Mofi brush could cover it all in one rotation, but I guess not.
     
  23. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Same here but I set them on a drinking glass so both sides get some air.
     
  24. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    My apologies. I missed your question. I haven’t contacted Kirmuss about it.
     
  25. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    The D’art du son just came. I also bought some small brown glass spray bottles and graduated cylinders for measuring. Pretty low cost on Amazon.

    I mixed some 50:1 in a 50ml spray bottle. Sprayed in three places, wiped with the grooves in both directions with the Mofi brush, then about a five minute dry time. Ran the LPs in the Kirmuss tank filled of 40ml 70% + distilled water, one 5 min cycle.

    A wipe off with the microfiber cloth, and a final few spins with the Kirmuss Parastatic brush. I used just under half of the spray bottle for 21 LPs. Took just two one hour sessions. Records I tested play fine. Haven’t done any college records yet :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022

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