Pre-dusting high quality routine after wet/ultrasonic cleaned LPs

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Jenn, Nov 15, 2021.

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  1. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hello Neil,

    I was wondering if you had any opinion of the;
    StaticWisk-141 Anti-Static Brush – 5.5″ w/ Grounding Cord

    I called the Company and they said some customers are using this on Vinyl records.
    I like the Tiger cloth, but was wondering if this might be soft enough or effective enough on the acrylic platter or lightly on the
    record while on the platter to remove dust.

    Regards
     
  2. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Jenn,

    The brush material is VI.8.b THUNDERON®: An extremely soft acrylic fiber that has been chemically bonded with a layer of copper sulfide. This outer layer becomes a part of the host fiber itself, which precludes the 'flaking' problem experienced by other conductive fibers. The fiber diameter is available in two diameters, 0.07 mm (0.0028"/~70 μm) and 0.11 mm (0.0043"/~110 μm). Its conductive layer is a super thin 300-1,000 (angstroms). Thunderon® has an electrical specific resistance of 10¹ - 10²Ω cm.”. Thunderon® while classified as conductive, is not as conductive as carbon fiber, but the bristle diameter will not deeply penetrate the record groove and the product flexibility is less prone to fracture and breaking off. The common brush design has the bristles embedded in a conductive plastic handle.

    Most THUNDERON brushes include goat hair to help stiffen the brush. You can buy 100% THUNDERON from Gordon Brushes 1 x 22 Row Thunderon® Conductive Short Handle Brush 900437T - Gordon Brush - it does not have the ground wire - you are the ground - just touch something metal while brushing. Grounded it will only be partially effective at reducing static; this report is evidence of that - Microsoft Word - SEALEZE_WHITE_PAPER_Final dam.doc. I have the same Kinetronics brush w/o the ground and its only marginally effective at removing dust; but very good at moving it. I no longer use it. When I had static issues - it did very little for me - YMMV.

    Now I have no major static issues (the cleaning, the mat, the grounded platter). I found for me the Tiger cloth worked; I had it on hand from the cleaning process and tried it - I cut a piece from the cloth. It does not create static and whatever particles it picks up are easy to remove by just shaking the cloth.

    Neil
     
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  3. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles

    Yesterday I’ve made the turntable mat using my esd safe cutting mat for bookmaking( worth the sacrifice!) self healing middle white (don’t know the material and the two green grids..total of 2mm ..the I’ve added on top 1mm PU self adhesive 3M esd proof faux leather,same as shoes one (I have many rolls and colors) went for brown .....I have to say this ..I’m using a nagaoka mp 110h so not expecting much ,
    I’ve put the “millennium concert “of the eagles that I’m super familiar to every passage note etc THE SOUND!!!amazing never been so quiet not an hint of static and it sparkled all the way everything much more in unison..maybe I’ve got lucky with the sound signature of the materials or the combo

    I’m not usually taken by surprise , I wish that I could share the before and after moment.

    ive retired the acrylic and cork/rubber mat for good
     
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  4. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Self-healing cutting mats appear to be mostly PVC and can be upwards of 5-layers:
    -Vantage® Self-Healing Cutting Mats To Protect Surfaces | Dahle
    -24 In. X 36 In. 5-Ply Cutting Mat, Green/Black — U.S. Art Supply (usartsupply.com)
    -OLFA RM-MG 24" x 36" Green Double-Sided Self-Healing Rotary Mat – OLFA.com

    Although none make any mention of being ESD safe? Do you have link for the mat you used - just curious. Otherwise, as they say - Well Done!
     
  5. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    ESD safe or not, can't get much closer than PVC on the triboelectric scale, so there should be little or no static. Mechanical impedance should be a fairly close match with the vinyl as well, presenting dynamics in the correct proportion to the recorded waveform. If the mat can also suppress platter resonances it should perform as a very good mat.
     
  6. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    I have seen that theory addressed a number of times, but not convinced that is what is happening. For one thing the PVC record is quite hard and tends not to be measured on a durometer scale, while flexible-PVC is soft enough to be measured on a durometer scale. From my engineering background this is how I understand mechanical impedance - A Guide to Mechanical Impedance and Structural Response Techniques (bksv.com); and this article on record mats Audio-1979-06.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) supports the concept that it's about damping. And, in engineering we design for over-damped, critically damped or under-damped depending on the specific system and how we want it to respond to vibration. For records, if the mechanical system is under-damped the results could be distortion, over-damped and transient response is attenuated and details are lost; so critically damped it is; and there are any number of ways to get there.
     
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  7. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    ESD Anti-Static Cutting Mats - From £12.41 - Clear Mats This is the company I’ve used ..for what I could tell from their grid cutting matt is that it doesn’t collect dust like the other surfaces in the workshop..their clear matt is good but is 5mm thick..I might try to make one ☝️ with the matt from the link you provided to see how it behaves on my table,..just love the knowledge exchanges on forums!
     
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  8. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Login • Instagram this is the only way I can share pics ..
     
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  9. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
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  10. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
  11. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Very nice job putting that together - I would not change to the mat I am using only because I think you at the point of any diminishing return.
     
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  12. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Whatever the mechanism, using a PVC mat is the easiest way to achieve the correct critical damping. The triboelectric affinity is just an added bonus.
     
  13. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Can't see it, but I've no doubt of your assertions. Well done. I once experimented with using a vinyl record as a mat surface, bonding it to a laminated metal plate to provide mass and damp the platter. It had a very natural dynamic quality....not to soft or too hard. The mat wasn't without its problems (it was quite thick) but static was also happily a non issue.
     
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  14. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I am interested in making my own DIY platter mat in stead of a cork/rubber mat.
    -Is the number of feet (I have only 3) a factor in determining how many layers of ESD material to use (I need to keep it < 2.5mm due to no VTA adjustment)
    -I have a depression on my Turntable platter (Acriillic), can I still use my spindle weight (304g) effectively after the ESD ?
    -Is the ESD main objective to reduce static, not change the sound ?
    -Will the cut mat need sealing on the edges or will the layers keep together after cutting?

    Thank you.
     
  15. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    No

    The depression in the platter is for the record label. If you use a DIY ESD mat, it does not have a depression for the label and using only a record-weight will not press the record to the mat. The record will sit above the mat a thickness = to the label thickness. This is why I addressed using a reflex clamp that clamps the record to the mat. Here is a low-cost record clamp Amazon.com: Record Doctor Turntable Clamp (Black) : Electronics. One of the best is - SOTA Reflex Clamp Record Clamping Weight (hifiheaven.net) but there is a slight cost difference.

    If you decide on using an ESD mat and going with a reflex clamp, recall that you need to add a thin rubber or leather washer to mat -see the book Figure 27.

    The ESD mat top surface which is vinyl and the center portion which is something that is generally somewhat soft does both; it reduces static and it damps the record - you get two for one.

    The ESD mats do not require any edge sealing.
     
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  16. BadAudioAdvice

    BadAudioAdvice Active Member

    Location:
    Princeton, NJ
    Neil, I was wondering if the clamp is necessary with the DIY ESD mat? (Necessary in the sense of big audible returns, or the last few tweaks of performance)
     
  17. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    The DIY ESD mat has no label depression so if you do not use the clamp, the record grooved surface will be above the mat by the thickness of the record label which negates any benefit the mat. Otherwise, there are differing opinions on the use of clamps in-general and it can be platter specific such as its material and thickness. Regardless, the reflex clamp does help those mildly warped records sit flat.
     
  18. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    I don't use a clamp with the SDS Isoplatmat I have adhered to the Schiit Sol platter. Like the DIY ESD mat, it too has no depression for the label, but SDS offers a neoprene topper 'donut' that is supposed to act as a label depression and cushion for the record. I don't use the topper either as I prefer the damping of the hard mat (CLD powder coated alloy) to the soft neoprene. I've tried clamping it various ways (I have several different ones to try, including a peripheral ring) but the Sol just doesn't sound as good with one. Other Sol owners will probably disagree and it will ultimately depend on user preference.

    What I'm saying is that even without a label depression, a clamp is not necessarily mandatory.
     
  19. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    If the record is not in contact with the Electro Static Discharge (ESD) mat then its function to dissipate static from the record surface will likely be compromised. As I wrote in the book -

    "As a general note, dissipative in ESD terms generally implies that static charge is dissipated slowly - generally within a few seconds. Dissipative surfaces are used to prevent accidental shorting of sensitive semi-conductors if they were placed on a conductive surface."

    "The material is Bertech™ ESD Vinyl Mats and Mat Kits, 3059 Series ESD-Vinyl-Mats-Datasheet-3059.pdf (bertech.com). The material is only 0.1" (3/32) thick but is 3-layers. The top is lightly embossed (gray or blue) vinyl that is formulated to be dissipative, the bottom is smooth vinyl that is formulated to be dissipative and the center is a conductive 'fleece'. The material is stiff (but the center is porous and not completely hard) with durometer of 85A so it has some damping, but can be cut with scissors. The center is electrically conductive."

    "But the mat surfaces being vinyl match the record material but being embossed is not a tight seal to the record so static should not be developed. Any static on the record should be dissipated across the surface to the grounded spindle or through the top dissipative vinyl cover to the conductive center to the grounded spindle. Even though the platter shaft/spindle is grounded, any static charge that is conducted to the platter, the path of least resistance can be to the record if it is in direct contact (large surface area) noting that the platter bearing is lubricated which provides some insulation, and only the spindle is in direct contact with the platter. The top and bottom dissipative vinyl surfaces prevent triboelectric effect from the aluminum platter to the record. And, any static charge that may be conducted to the platter from the EPDM rubber drive belts is dissipated by the mat to the platter spindle."

    "The mat material and use are not breaking any new ground; it just appears to be a good collection of anti-static and damping properties that follows established ESD such as ground all conductors and minimize insulating type materials. Unfortunately, the insulating vinyl record that as previously addressed is very negative on the triboelectric scale cannot be eliminated. The article Do Turntable Mats Work? You Bet! Robert Stockton, Audio Magazine June 1979 (69) Audio-1979-06.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) goes into a good summary on the topic and no reason to repeat here and further illustrates the flow of static charge and the benefits of damping."
     
  20. BadAudioAdvice

    BadAudioAdvice Active Member

    Location:
    Princeton, NJ
    Thank you Neil for pointing that out! My mistake in forgetting that the purpose is to have the record make contact with the mat to get the benefit of the static dissipation.
     
  21. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Static charge can move without direct contact as any electroscope will demonstrate. Likewise, there's no need to clamp the record down to the mat to dissipate a charge.

    I don't have a static issue anymore.....at all. The records I've washed are rinsed in a dilute solution of distilled water and quats to help control static. This obviously helps, but only half my records are treated this way, yet the other half are also static free and either only dusted or were washed at an earlier time when I wasn't using the quats.

    I believe the reason I'm static free is that for every record I play, I use a dust bug to sweep the record free of dust as it plays. The bristles are carbon fibre which are intended to be grounded through a wire, but I don't use the wire. Oddly enough, using the wire generates more static than if I don't use it. I believe the reason is because the wand is bare metal which causes the charge to dissipate into the surrounding air rather than being forced to an alternate electrical potential through the wire, a potential which is at greater odds with the record than the air above it. Dunno for sure, but I'm happily not complaining.

    Static is an odd thing: like fleas, hard to get rid of once your pet has them. Yet once they're gone, life is good.
     
  22. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    The article Phonograph Reproduction 1978, James H. Kogen, Audio Magazine May 1978 (36)Audio-1978-05.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) goes into some detail on static; what causes it and what does not – the needle in the groove was not a source of static. The article indicates that static is not uniform, but exists as islands on a record. Additionally, once the static gets high enough to discharge to the cartridge it only reduces to about 4200 volts. A static charge on the record of 4200 volts will not create noise by itself, but it can by electrostatic attractive forces cause a transient increase in cartridge VTF as much as 0.375 grams leading to distortion and premature wear.

    Industry uses conductive brushes to control static and when they do, the brush is not in contact with surface, it's a few millimeters above. But the effectiveness of brushes to fully dissipate static is poor as indicated in this paper Microsoft Word - SEALEZE_WHITE_PAPER_Final dam.doc. It's enough to lower the static charge on a record below the audible discharge but not enough to prevent impact to the cartridge.

    And one complication with the ESD mat is that the surface is not conductive; its dissipative (these are ESD terms) and will it dissipate a static charge like a conductor can placed close but not in contact - good question?

    From an ESD perspective:

    Surface Conductive Material. Materials with a surface resistivity less than 10^5 ohms per square, or materials with a volume resistivity less than 10^4 ohm-cm.

    Surface Dissipative material. Materials with a surface resistivity equal to or greater than 10^5 but less than 10^12 ohms per square, or materials with a volume resistivity equal to or greater than 10^4 but less than 10^11 ohm-cm.
     
  23. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    IME, dissipative is preferable to conductive.

    Btw, I forgot to mention the Sol metal platter is not grounded, either. Both the thrust plate and sleeve bearing are plastic, so there's no conductive path to the plinth ground. Possibly why using a clamp doesn't work for me, but I wonder if this has any bearing on the behaviour of static (or not, in my case) in the record.
     
  24. Vinny123

    Vinny123 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    I’ve used one of those inexpensive soft ‘sticky’ rubber-like rollers before every play. I have several brushes which are ok, but I find that the rollers are much better. After using the roller it’s hard to find a singe spec of dust, etc on the LP. After a ‘wash’, the roller works great, way better than any brush that I’ve tried, and I own several. These rollers are cheap enough, maybe $15 for two off Amazon.
     
  25. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Have you measured to see if there is a conductive path from the platter to the base? These photos Schiit Sol Turntable Sneak-Peak | Super Best Audio Friends show the inverted bearing with the platter and the Igus plastic bearing sleeve and it is insulating Browse our Range of iglide® Plastic Bearings Materials | igus® . But if you look at the inverted bearing post on the plinth the upper portion near the thrust ball does not appear to show polish from the bearing sleeve which 'may' mean the Igus bearing sleeve is only partial which 'may' provide a ground path. Its a stretch but its so easy to check - just curious.
     
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