Sinatra / Capitol: General Purpose Sound Quality (and more) Discussion Thread*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by hodgo, Nov 10, 2009.

  1. Jack White

    Jack White Senior Member

    Location:
    Canada
  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Yep, and we've been down this road before, which is why I said "songs" not "albums," but I should have clarified myself better.

    For Sinatra stuff, aside from the Singles set, I'll bring up the old 1989 Pal Joey soundtrack CD, which is absolutely awful, but is literally the only way to get some of those songs with un-squished dynamics.
     
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  3. hh22359

    hh22359 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    [​IMG]
    MMM, Matt and Bob - thanks for feedback and input. If it has been established that the DR values above from my copy do indeed represent the original 1992 CD, then this invites a more serious question: does the 1992 CD contain a remaster as Walsh intended it to be? Is it really a Walsh remaster?

    Consider this:
    • The lower dynamics on the 1992 CD are not the result of compression technique leaving the waveform intact, but rather of clipped peaks chopped off at -3dB; not a single track of the Walsh CDs that I have (Jolly Christmas, Swingin' Affair, Where Are You, Sings For Only The Lonely, Nice 'n' Easy, Come Fly With Me) looks like "Green", "Purple", "Yellow", "Gold", "Orange", "Brown" or "Red" from the 1992 CD
    • Walsh CDs are quiet remaster / remixes. The 1992 CD is loud, e.g. track Yellow is ca 3dB louder (looking at the intact part until 0:37) than the Norberg version
    • The same 1992 mono master / mix is available from a third party label (Sinetone AMR) at e.g. Qobuz. At least "Yellow" which I downloaded for comparison is identical to the 1992 track.
    What do you think?
     
  4. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    @hh22359: Your image is a local file on your C: drive and does not show. You need to place it on a public file server to allow it to be seen here. (Also, without your first name in your profile, should we address you as something other than "hh"? :))

    It's not clear to me that this was actually mastered by Larry Walsh. People assume so, because it's the only one of the 16 CDs in the original Concepts box without a mastering credit, and all the others were mastered by Walsh. However, it is also the only CD which was not issued separately from the box set. Certainly, the waveforms do not resemble anything that Larry ever touched.
     
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  5. hh22359

    hh22359 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Point taken, profile updated. So far I did not find any discussion re. the provenance of the 1992 CD. It looks like a rushed affair, maybe added at the eleventh hour to the first edition of Concepts without any serious quality control process in place. But that's only speculation. Looks like the only way to listen to the true mono mix is the costly vinyl option, unless ... Did anyone listen to the 2012 Hallmark CD?
     
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  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    To my knowledge, unfortunately, this album never had a later-era reissue on LP, i.e., a 1970s Dutch or German LP, a 1984 UK LP, a 1980s Australian LP, etc. Those would almost certainly have had wider dynamics (and very possibly better mastering) than a 1956 US original will have.

    I don't have the 1992 CD, but I'm guessing that in regular listening, the dynamics issues are not especially bothersome? I would not be at all surprised to learn that if you ran a 1956 "mint" LP and a 1992 through Ye Olde DR Meter, the measured dynamic ratings would be very similar, and then the question becomes: Which type of compression bothers me more?


    Does Come Dance with Me have a "Mastered by Larry Walsh" credit in that box, Bob?


     
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  7. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    I can always rely on you to keep me honest, Matt. :)

    No, Larry Walsh is not credited. However, Come Dance with Me is one of four consecutively-numbered Concepts CDs first issued together in late 1987. The other three (Come Fly with Me, Songs for Young Lovers/Swing Easy!, and Only the Lonely) all say, "Remastered by Larry Walsh."
     
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  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Based on this Ebay listing, Frank, Jr., had a bunch of these CDs in a stash somewhere:
    Screen shot 2017-02-12 at 10.41.27 AM.jpg
     
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  9. hh22359

    hh22359 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Matt - I don't mind lower DR at all, if that was the intent of the mastering engineer. But this is different - the waveforms are clipped "haircut style" at -3dB. Unfortunately I have no means to upload screenshots, but Bob has seen it as well - it is not a pretty sight.
     
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  10. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    It's very ugly.
     
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    You might try tinkering with some judicious use of Clip Repair within Audacity. Results can vary a lot, but for certain things, it can be quite effective.
     
  12. hh22359

    hh22359 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Nah, I'm ok now that I know that the 1992 CD has quality issues. Whatever is left from the original mono mix on this CD does not sound really bad - just could have been so much better. I don't have much hope for a new intact release - this is a niche item in a niche market. I am more interested to learn the story behind this release. Maybe someday we'll read it on your Sinatra website.
    Take care and thanks for all the valuable info found here and over at 11fifty ...
     
  13. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    The funny thing is, even with its faults, when I compared it with a mint gray label LP years ago, it was quite a bit better sounding overall, and I don't throw that around easily. It is much better sounding than the Norberg disc.

    There are a few parts of it where it seems a little extra hot, but I've otherwise found it to be quite nice. I'd seriously use "Silver" as an example of good sound, though much of that is due to the sound John Palladino got, including the way he used the echo chambers.
     
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  14. hh22359

    hh22359 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    You're right. Silver is one of the tracks that remained almost intact (same for Gray, Black, Blue and - to some extent - White). Green, Purple, Yellow, Gold, Orange, Brown & Red, however ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  15. BluRayVen

    BluRayVen Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New Mexico
    I'm new to this site and I've been reading through this forum that someone on another site linked to me. In the last hour or so reading through this I came upon this post from 2 year ago. I Acquired that red box set not quit a month ago after scouring the internet trying to find it after learning it exists when one day I looked at sinatrayfamily.com. Now I learn from here that there is a black box set as well!! Oh the curse of the collector.
    Let me rewind a bit. I started collecting Sinatra about 6 years ago and I started using Discogs to catalog my collection 3 years ago. My ability to grow my collection, well grew, when I found just how many unique variations of Sinatra albums there were. Now My collection has become a bit of an obsession. I will buy records that aren't on there database just so I can add them. This is why I scoured the net so furiously for that red Netherlands Sinatra Story box set. Come Dance With Me is my favorite Sinatra album and that one I've collected the most of. So far I have 82 with the last KNOWN variation on the way, 36 alone were added by me to that database. Just today I got in the mail the green label version of CDWM in the Sinatra Story series from the Netherlands, which as of now is not on the Discogs database. I wish I knew about this site years ago, especially when one user offered to sell his red box set, or that black set.
    Anyway. I came to this site looking for more information on the great Frank Sinatra that I could use on submission to Discogs. I feel like I'm doing some small part in preserving and building on the history of this man. I want the subs I make to be as complete and descriptive as possible, and I like to fill in missing info when I can (especially missing or low quality photos). This way when I add missing info to a page I know where to link to so other users know where my date came from. Sorry if i'm singing the praises of Discogs here, as I said want as much info as can be produced on, well, ALL of his albums.
    So far in just this forum I've found 3 albums that I didn't know existed, and there's many more forums on Frank here.
     
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  16. Richard--W

    Richard--W Forum Resident

    When it comes to collecting Sinatra I'd be lost without this forum and Matt's page.
     
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  17. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    WELCOME @BluRayVen ! You have much in common with @MLutthans. Sometime, ask him about his collection of...Only the Lonely. :D
     
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  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    @BluRayVen - Welcome, and if you ever want to submit any audio samples for this site: www.11fifty.com, please let me know.
     
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  19. BluRayVen

    BluRayVen Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New Mexico
    I don't have any audio sample but if you want my collection of record labels photos I'd be happy to upload them, somewhere. I keep a photo inventory on my computer. 1300 and counting.
     
  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Well, if there's something I need in terms of labels, which is apt to happen, I'll rattle your cage!
     
  21. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Re: earlier post, Frank Sinatra's Major Capitol LP Releases 1954–62, and pursuant to a discussion in another thread, I have compiled this list showing the time between each album's release date (usually a Monday) and its first appearance on the Billboard Music Week Best Selling LP's chart (usually a week-ending Saturday or Sunday, depending on publication schedule).

    Major Sinatra Capitol LPs: Weeks from Release to First Billboard Chart

    Released —> Charted (# weeks)

    01/04/54 —> 02/27/54 (8 weeks) Songs for Young Lovers
    08/02/54 —> 09/04/54 (5 weeks) Swing Easy!
    04/25/55 —> 05/28/55 (5 weeks) In the Wee Small Hours
    03/05/56 —> 03/31/56 (4 weeks) Songs for Swingin' Lovers!
    11/15/56 —> 12/22/56 (5 weeks) This Is Sinatra!
    01/21/57 —> 03/02/57 (6 weeks) Close to You
    05/06/57 —> 05/18/57 (2 weeks) A Swingin' Affair!
    09/02/57 —> 09/14/57 (2 weeks) Where Are You?
    09/30/57 —> 12/21/57 (12 weeks) A Jolly Christmas from Frank Sinatra
    10/14/57 —> 11/11/57 (4 weeks) Pal Joey
    01/06/58 —> 01/25/58 (3 weeks) Come Fly with Me
    03/31/58 —> 04/19/58 (3 weeks) This Is Sinatra, Volume Two
    09/08/58 —> 09/20/58 (2 weeks) Frank Sinatra Sings for Only the Lonely
    01/05/59 —> 01/31/59 (4 weeks) Come Dance with Me!
    04/20/59 —> 06/07/59 (7 weeks) Look to Your Heart
    07/20/59 —> 08/23/59 (5 weeks) No One Cares
    07/25/60 —> 08/21/60 (4 weeks) Nice 'n' Easy
    01/02/61 —> 02/19/61 (7 weeks) Sinatra's Swingin' Session!!!
    03/13/61 —> 04/16/61 (5 weeks) All the Way
    07/31/61 —> 08/20/61 (3 weeks) Come Swing with Me!
    03/05/62 —> 04/21/62 (6 weeks) Point of No Return
    07/02/62 —> 08/18/62 (7 weeks) Sinatra Sings... of Love and Things
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017
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  22. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    The Christmas album rode the charts the longest? WOW!!!!!
     
  23. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    No. Those are not the # weeks on the charts. They are the # weeks BEFORE reaching the charts.
     
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  24. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    OOPS! Apologies.
     
  25. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Once they reached the charts, most stayed for a LONG time. Only the Lonely lasted 120 weeks. Come Dance with Me, 140 weeks!
     
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