Wow and flutter, etc. Tape Speed Issues - Tone Poet / Blue Note 80th anniversary vinyl LP problems.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by StevenTounsand, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    It's a shame because I think the TP has better high-end and the bass sounds more lifelike. I can live with it, but the piano vibrato is not subtle. Would love to know definitively what is going on.
     
    patient_ot and Vic Trola like this.
  2. p.analogowy

    p.analogowy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warsaw PL
    I have a copy of the Tone Poet Chant, and even though I do hear some pitch wavering in a few places it is not nearly as bad as the one on the audio clip posted above... if it would be this bad I would certainly return it.
    I will spin Chant tonight specifically to double check.
     
  3. Yeah I’m not hearing anything close to that clip on my TP Chant.
     
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    If yours is not as bad I wonder if the other person's copy is off center. RTI is definitely having trouble keeping these records centered on this series for some reason. Besides the tape issues, this is also something that needs to be addressed. RTI was one of my favorite pressing plants, but they do seem to be slipping a lot lately.
     
  5. Vic Trola

    Vic Trola Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Listening to the TP clip, there are 5-6 seriously wavy notes during Hancock's solo. I don't hear these on the clip of the original.

    The problem on the TP clip does not sound like off-center pressing to me. It sounds like Herbie added a whammy bar to his piano.
     
  6. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Yeah, I don’t think this whole ongoing catastrophe has much to do with off center pressings, myself.

    Music Matters, truth be told, has had its share of off center stuff from RTI, and yet this problem of flutter has been virtually non-existent.
     
    Vic Trola and patient_ot like this.
  7. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA

    I'm just struggling to understand how one copy of the same LP with the same tape damaged warbly lacquer cut could sound worse than another, unless that poster is mistaken and both sound equally bad.
     
    AaronW and Vic Trola like this.
  8. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL


    Here's the setup I used to record it playing the same track. Please excuse the screaming child. What do you think? Sorry the video is a bit shaky.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  9. I posted my Black Fire YouTube video in the other thread a while back. It sounded good but folks said it didn’t count :tiphat:
     
  10. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Pressing looks fine. Good to know and I’m not surprised.

    This is baked in. Only answer for me is to stop buying them for now.
     
    nosliw, Vic Trola and patient_ot like this.
  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Right, you may recall that I tried 3 copies of Black Fire and all were bad, even the one I could manually center.
     
    Vic Trola likes this.
  12. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Does your confusion know any end?

    Your video was fine but the sound was distant and impossible to ascertain any details from.

    The video above is to show the system involved and the pressing, not to demonstrate the speed problem. That was already covered with proper vinyl rips in post 78.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  13. Got that. But I was in the room listening and it sounded good.
     
  14. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    That’s great. I’m drinking coffee right now and it tastes good. If I make a YouTube video of me drinking coffee will that to prove to you that it tastes good?
     
  15. If from fresh dark roast beans then yes. Those light roast hipster beans, then no.
     
  16. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    That explains it! I only drink light roast. The beans have gone to my ears and caused the pitch instability that I'm hearing. Switching to dark roast immediately...
     
    patient_ot, AFA, Vic Trola and 2 others like this.
  17. Nice. Light roast actually has more caffeine so might be making you more jittery. :tiphat:
     
    AFA likes this.
  18. I have this one from Heavenly Sweetness:

    Donald Byrd - Chant
     
    Dan Steele likes this.
  19. I tried to listen to both clips. Where in the song does it start to become noticeable?
     
  20. If you really want to check whether the record is well centered, I know of only one method. I place the clear plastic cover over the playing record and I have white paper strips taped to the top which I use as a reference point to see if my tonearm is moving/swaying relative to the fixed paper strip. With this method, you can easily detect smallest amount of off-center, and I make sure the record is perfectly centered before recording my needledrop. I have a reamer handy which almost every record needs to get it perfect.

    And, while these old Thorens turntables are really nice, don't expect perfect speed stability from it, even if you took a lot of care setting it up, some form of wow and flutter will be present, which is probably so small that it shouldn't be noticeable during normal listening.

    But when you add various factors, they can contribute to overall speed stability.

    For more precise comparisons regarding speed issues, it would probably be better to use a turntable where the speeed stability has been setup very precisely. Perhaps a new Technics direct drive (the expensive one) or something like that. I don't intend to open a can of worms here, but I would refrain from any statements regarding speed stability with my modest Rega RP6 setup (with sub-plater upgrade), even when I have painstakenly centered the record with the method described above.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  21. jon9091

    jon9091 Master Of Reality

    Location:
    Midwest
    I guess that might be helpful for decks with dust covers that are attached, but I would not try that method with my VPI deck.
     
  22. Yes, should be a hinged cover, otherwise too risky. I guess you could think of a different setup with some fixed point with good visibility (I use white paper) in close proximity to the headshell.

    Or just play records and enjoy the music...but if you are sensitive to speed issues, you should be bothered by a record that is not well centered.
     
  23. Kimiimacman

    Kimiimacman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lost
    I don’t really remember your clip but you could try re-recording it using your mobile phone as a sound recording rather than a YouTube placing it on one of the speakers which has the piano track if not summed or switching your preamp to mono; mic in phone hanging off the front edge. Set to record and leave the room. Works for me.

    You have repeatedly stated you don’t hear the issue on McNeil (a the rest of side 1) unlike many of us and you are a very lucky guy in my book because I find it most objectionable. If therefore you actually have a unaffected copy we’d be most interested to hear it.
     
    nosliw, jon9091 and p.analogowy like this.
  24. periclimenes

    periclimenes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Miami, FL
    To my ear, it's worst at 4:40
     
    nosliw and patient_ot like this.
  25. RiRiIII

    RiRiIII Forum Resident

    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    really bad indeed...
     

Share This Page

molar-endocrine