Stranger than Fiction, Larger Than Life: the Finn Brothers song-by-song discussion thread

Very interesting thoughts. One thing that I think also contributed was timing. Escapade was successful in Australia and New Zealand in 1983 and in many countries in Europe in 1984. But at least in Europe, apart from a brief promo tour, Tim didn't come to Europe for a tour and then nothing was heard from him in 1985 in this part of the world. Any momentum that had been built up by the singles getting radio airplay in Europe was lost. His next solo album didn't appear until April 1986, two years later - and in the mid-80s, two years was a long time between releases. Then, of all tracks on Big Canoe, the record company chose to release "No Thunder, No Fire, No Rain" as the first single. Great song, but not a great choice as a first single. I think it's one thing if you are, say, Bruce Springsteen or U2, if they release a very different-sounding single they will get radio/TV airplay anyway, but Tim was essentially starting from zero as a solo artist in 1986, at least from a UK/European perspective.
For the singles off Tim Finn, the video clips aren't anything special and again he was basically starting from zero as a solo artist (at least outside Australasia and for a mainstream audience) and it's hard to imagine someone watching on MTV, a person who has never heard of Tim Finn, becoming a fan by seeing the clips. In Chris Bourke's book, then-Capitol president Hale Milgrim says that the record company felt that Tim had delivered a very strong album, worked very hard promoting and touring it, but that they (the record company) didn't get the promotion right.

I think timing was also a factor for Before & After. If he had had the album ready to go in mid-1992, when he supported Crowded House on several shows in the U.K. and the success of Woodface was still fresh, then I think the right people would still have been at the record company and they would have been able to promote the album better.

I've been to many great concerts where the artist(s) on stage have had no banter at all (other than the odd "thank you") and that can work too, depending on the artist and the concert. Morrissey, for example, is perceived (rightly or wrongly) by many as being aloof and grumpy and he has been very successful, so I think it's a combination of factors, many of them beyond the artist's talent and quality of music, that contributes with regards to commercial success or not.

 

Just in case anyone has missed today's announcement, Crowded House's tour dates in Europe in mid-2020 has been announced as well as the new line-up consisting of Neil, Nick, Mitchell Froom, Liam Finn and Elroy Finn. In today's mail from Neil's official mailing list, it also says that there will be "new music" to go with the tour. More information here:
Crowded House

 

Agreed, well said.

 

Why is it that the Finn related threads seem to have the most rational, respectful conversation on the entire forum? Haha. People have their own opinions and no one tries to steamroll over them.

 

"No More Tears" just feels like a B-Side. It has that "we got it done and recorded, but it doesn't fit anywhere" vibe to it. I think it would have fit better with the 1989 album stylistically than this one, if I had to track it somewhere. It's fine, but it doesn't have any impact on me beyond just being a song with a recognizable voice. It's like the second song that plays during the credits of the movie - after the theme is over and most of the people have left.

 

You're wrong about that, you jerk!

 

Lol. Yeah well, I've come to the conclusion that my opinion is fact.

 

Chris Bourke also blames a shift in Capitol staff, including, crucially, the firing of fan Hale Milgrim and replacing him with Gary Gersh for Before and After's failure (and to Together Alone's failure in the States, though he goes into more detail on the latter.). To be honest, of Tim's singles from 1986-1993 the only one that has "smash potential" to my (American) ears is "Persuasion." "Parihaka" and "How'm I Gonna Sleep" have some big potential too, but the first wasn't released anywhere but New Zealand. And I think he just wasn't big enough to sell the second one.

And it was a hit on Adult Alternative radio, which should have been Capitol's cue to push it onto Adult Contempo stations. I really can't imagine that audience not loving it. I definitely believe they dropped the ball big time with Tim. He worked his butt off in the UK and Europe it seems and did have osme limited success. I don't have chart figures for most of Europe, though.

Ironically, I think that Tim did have that "break out single" in Europe. Unfortunately it was under the name of Crowded House. Oh well. HIs relative failure has given him more money than I will ever have, for sure.

And being put into the indie league in the US I think focused him on the art rather than the chart. (tm)

 

I know this is off topic, but what with the news today I thought I'd pull out some Crowded House DVD's that I havn't seen in a while. So I started with a bootleg of the Austin City Limits show from 2007. Damn, this is a great performance. Liam was also in the band at this point and as a 5 piece they were really on fire. Kind of a mellow show, but the sound quality is really good and the Time On Earth tracks really shine and are quite beautiful. Sorry to go off topic, but I'm a little hyped up about todays news. A new Crowded House album is coming, woo hoo!

 

"No More Tears" is basically b-side material to my ears. I wouldn't have tried too hard to find a spot for it on the album. I still prefer even the weakest tracks on Before & After to this one, although perhaps that's just down to me hearing them a lot more frequently. I don't play the "Hit The Ground Running" single very often and I think that's the only place this song has ever appeared.

3.1/5

 

I find "No More Tears" not very interesting, musically. 3/5

 

No More Tears doesn't reach quite high enough for me. The pain in the performance doesn't match the pain in the words. The horns at the end could have been more prominent earlier in the song, they take off nicely at the end. I think increasing the tempo at the end, while serving the lyrics well, don't serve the mood of the song.

But I do like it for what it is. 3.75/5

 

The tone is set at the top, and Thread Starter @Lance LaSalle has led us throughout with intelligence, insight, wit and respect. My only regret is that I didn't participate from the start.

 

Well, that's one of the nicest compliments I've received in a while. Thanks, @BeSteVenn. I'm not sure I can take credit. I'd like to thank extremely knowledgeable contributors to this thread like @robcar, @Jaffaman, @Otis82 @StefanWq and others who make it so much more than a song-by-song thread and help maintain an atmosphere of curiosity --tinged with a revealing nostalgia -- about the nooks and crannies of these two artists' particular careers.

Our votes for "No More Tears":

1-0
2-0
3-2
4-3
5-0
Average: 3.51

 

Today's song is "You've Changed", written by Tim Finn, produced by Clive Langer & Alan Winstanley, engineered by Danton Supple.

Sadly, this one also doesn't stream any more, though it appears to have done so once on MySpace.

"You've Changed" was released on the double EP of Hit the Ground Running in the UK.

Lyric transcribed below:

What's that strange attraction
Getting my reaction,
Calling me from miles away?
Yesterday's affliction
Felt like an addiction
Doesn't matter what you say

You've changed
You're not like before
You've changed
Put a lock on your door
You've changed
La da da da da da....You've changed

Like a rock to rubble
WE fell into trouble
Time will blow the dust away
What did we discover
Never to recover
Somewhere in the cold light of day

You've changed
You're not like before
Put a lock on your door
You've changed
La da da da da da....You've changed

Put a lock on your yeah
Putting me through hell
Everything's different
Since I've fallen right under your spell
But I never really knew you
And I thought I had everything
But I meant nothin to you
It goes to show
You never know
You've changed
You know you did....

You've changed
You're not like before
Put a lock on your door
You've changed
La da da da da da....You've changed

Because she did it
Because she had to
And you know she does it
Only if she wants to
Because she did it
Because she needed to
And now she does it
Because she loves it

Aaaaahhhhh

 

I love "You've Changed." Despite the fact that it's obvious Stevie Wonder pastiche, it's an excellent Stevie Wonder pastiche and it pastiches the right era too. It helps to love seventies Stevie Wonder, I suppose! And I do.

Lyrically, the song is about a break up and seems enfused with real emotion -- I agree that the lyric of the last one fell just a little short. Here it hits hard for me.

I think Tim has really put his pain and anger into this song as he chronicles the bitter and turbulent end of his break up. It's definitely relateable to me and I can feel Tim's loss of innocence and jadedness in every note.

At the same time the classic seventies funk of the backing track (again, much better production and sound from Langer&Winstanley than the stuff on Before and After, in my opinion) and soul-drenched melody sound like Tim and the big expensive band he's hired are having a ball. What a party this track is! I really could listen to music like this all day. I also quite like the backing vocalists who sings at the end. What a voice! There are no credits on the single: is that Claudia Fontaine?

When I think about the double EP of Hit the Ground Running, I realize that he's put all the most bitter, personal songs about his break up ("No More Tears", "You've Changed" and "Not Made of Stone") there on the second CD. I mean, who knows: maybe the record company did that, but I like to think he really wanted the songs out and really wanted them all to make this sort of bitter statement together, knowing that the message on the album was going be uplifting and more spiritual.

On Before and After the break up songs are different: "Funny Way"'s main thing is the sunny hook and power pop crunch, the lyrics are secondary to the music; while "Persuasion" presents the newly single man as someone who is learning to accept the loss of the relationship with a certain wistful maturity.

"Can't Do Both" is unrelated and to some extent impersonal; in fact, it's similar thematically to "Verde" from Southern Cross. Though I like "Verde" better.

These three songs from Hit the Ground Running, however, are the songs that came before "Persuasion" (in some break up narrative, not, of course in the order he wrote them, which I don't know.)

I guess he simply didn't want to make a dark break up record and wanted Before and After to more reflect his spiritual ephiphanies. But personally I think these songs were better than B-side material.

I'll dock it a little for being an obvious pastiche musically, but some very big artists(Red Hot Chili Peppers, Lenny Kravitz) make a huge chunk of their careers of pastiche, in a way; and even, say, Paul McCartney, is a skilled mimic who has employed his talents in that way dozens of songs over his career to enjoyable effect. So I don't dock it too much for that.

4.6/5

 

"You've Changed" is one that I've just never gotten into. I find the funk approach just too far from Tim's comfort zone to really take off; it just seems lumpen to me. It is interesting that some of the most bitter "break-up" songs from this period were shoved off of the album proper and onto the "Hit The Ground Running" single - this one only on the UK version of the single. For me, the music isn't strong enough to warrant a place for this track on the album - I don't really hear a lot of inspiration here.

3.0/5

 

Oh dear, I seem to have completely lost my way here. I do apologise.

I enjoy Before & After a great deal. There's lots to like and it's quite eclectic as I've said before.

Let me just go over the last few tracks now....

In Your Sway - 3/5
Strangeness and Charm - 4/5 great bass line again
Always Never Now - a bit of a 90s baggy manchester beat to this one, the spoken bit is reminiscent of Jimmy Nail's Aint No Doubt, very dated.... 2.5/5
Walk You Home - another good bassline 3/5
I Found It - some annoying synth ruins what could have been a good song. I can imagine the vocal accompanied by piano. 2.5/5

So, a slightly weak end to an interesting album.

 

And the album as a whole......

3.75/5 Doesn't quite reach the heights of CH and NF or FB for me.

 

"You've Changed". I've had this song in my collection for years, but it never made a huge impression on me. I've had teh song on repeat today and it's a big production with horns and backing vocalists - just as "No More Tears"- which suggests these songs were intended to be included on the album. I can't imagine Capitol and/or Tim investing $ for three b-sides. The chronology of Before & After's remains murky, no one I asked cane remember about it's creation, but as some have suggested earlier I think the whole album was to be recorded with Langer and Winstanley. Only a couple were used on the album and three were relegated to b-sides. Like the production the three song - "Secret Heart", "No More Tears" and "You've Changed" - the compositions are decent: not great but worthy as album tracks. (Better than "I Found It" and "Can't Do Both"!).

"You've Changed" to me is the weakest of the three: a nice groove, but a mediocre melody and not at all very original. It doesn't sound like an original Tim Finn composition. I can't find the post at the moment, but someone wrote recently Tim was more at the mercy of his producers than Neil and I think that comment is spot on concerning the reasons Before & After's recording was likely halted after a just batch of songs with Langer and Winstanly. Whether these three songs were relegated to b-sides because they lack identity or if there were too negative in tone is up for discussion.

3 / 5

 

I need to find time to listen to those B sides. I recall finding them all mildly enjoyable if not compelling but I'll be honest and say I've not really given them much chance to shine. Here's my excuse.

 

Going back to the question of why Tim's career failed to take off. One of the key issues, I think, is always the surrounding musical landscape. The arrival of grunge was kind of like a second punk revolution in the sense that suddenly, adult orientated rock was really unhip. Woodface had appeared just before grunge happened and CH managed to catch a dedicated audience just before the tidal wave washed so many rock bands away. But more than grunge, Tim just always occupied that singer/songwriter adult orientated pop market that would only ever achieve success if he could pull off one or more Big Ballad Phil Collins-esque hits. Which, thankfully, he just didn't have in his locker.

 

"You've Changed" is another track I haven't listened to for years and now that I've heard it again I remember why. This kind of funk/soul pop with heavily arranged horns, enthusiastic backing singers, a funky bass groove prominently in the mix and a rather generic melody is not my cup of tea at all and I don't think it's Tim's forte either. (Judging from the sound of some of the early Mullanes demos and also "That's What I Call Love", it's not Neil's forte either) This track makes me shudder at the thought of how a whole Langer/Winstanley produced Tim album might have turned out. Tim's singing is superb though.

The lyrics are well-written about the end of a relationship and fit well with the other bonus tracks on the single. The theory that Tim wanted them released but not on the album seems plausible. I imagine that artists know that albums tend to be available much longer while bonus tracks on singles, which usually go out of print once the single has had its run, will be more obscure and only really heard by die-hard fans.

Not a big fan of this song but I'm glad we got outtakes as bonus tracks.

2/5

 

Apologies for having been too busy to post recently, but as I'm not the biggest fan of Tim's solo work perhaps that was for the best...

You've Changed certainly suffers from the production, as others have said, and it drags on interminably. It also doesn't help that lyrically it recalls Fame Is which, while not a classic, is certainly much stronger than this.

1.5/5.