HiFi XLR cables...

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Oelewapper, Dec 1, 2021.

  1. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    Yesterday, I came across this video from Guido:

    In this video he's discussing a few "levels" of XLR cables, ranging from DIY to audiophile premade cables.
    While I'm definitely a big proponent of good quality XLR cables (and cables in general), I don't really see the point in using all sorts of fancy materials for these cables.

    So I'm interested if anyone has found that fancy stuff like OCC, cryotreated copper, mylar foam, graphite dielectric, etc. has an effect on fully balanced XLR connections?
    Another thing I don't get is, why are most people looking at the materials, the mechanical properties and not the electrical properties instead?
    I mean, it's all about the transport of an electrical signal after all, so looking at electrical properties would make much more sense IMO.

    I know, I know... cables are a controversial topic, just let's not get all riled up about it this time...
     
  2. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    Yes good point. At the end of the day, what's the point of all the fancy OCC, cryo, fancy dielectric, ultrasonic treatment, electrical burn in if there's nothing to find electrically? Last I checked, electrical conduction is the mechanism of action. The obvious answer is that there is a belief that this stuff matters. It's about faith and non-utilitarian benefits.

    I always find it fascinating what many of these folks believe, as encapsulated in the first 1.5 min of this video:

    "In my opinion, and I'm not going to go into detail here, cables do have an effect on sound... Unfortunately they do... Let's just say in this case they have a softer/better effect in my opinion..."
    If not here, where has this man gone into details? Let's not say with the wave of the hand, right off the bat, the effect is better unless there's some reason or at least some tests to give credence to the belief. Nothing wrong with spending money but where's the evidence that we should?

    Hilarious at around 6:30 he says "We don't care about the esthetics, we care about the sonics..." ;-). Okay guy. Sure...

    I'm not saying anyone has to go really cheap. The point is that you can spend $20 and get excellent XLR wires that are robust, have good connection, fine conductors, and sound just as good as anything he has on show with likely zero difference electrically. Put the rest of the money into music. Pretend if you have to that you got some fancy cables (hey, he's already in denial pretending that esthetics make no difference), and your ears won't know the difference IMO. But you'll definitely enjoy more music.
     
  3. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
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  4. jbmcb

    jbmcb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Troy, MI, USA
    That's an interesting video. I use DIY Canare Starquad cables terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors. When I worked for an electronics company, the guy in charge of sound quality used these cables exclusively. We tested a few other cables, including audiophile grade, in the listening room and on the Audio Precision, and only a couple of other cables came close. I think a low-end Kimber tested very well, but was over 10x the price of the DIY Canare + Neutrik.

    We also tested single ended cables and, funnily enough, the best one was a "Tesla" brand cable that came with my Pro-Ject turntable. Clearly made to be cheap, as it had thin insulation and molded plastic connectors (though was thicker than other cheap cables) it blew away everything else on the test bench. Very little noise, as flat a frequency response as a single ended cable can get, and ideal capacitance curves.
     
  5. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    i have used XLR cables for a few years now. Some do sound better than others. The basic mogami benchmark cables sounded bland in comparison to my van den hull and nordost.
    in other words they respnond similarily to RCA cables. Some may consider $400 US crazy money for cables but at what price do you get the same desirable results?
     
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  6. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    No need for better XLR cables than the Mogami/Neutrik models from World’s Best Cables IME. Completely neutral, smooth, and transparent. The amplification and sources most are using are a much greater hindrance than any cable. If the clouds suddenly part when inserting a $500 cable you might want to check your volume and anticipation levels.
     
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  7. gakerty

    gakerty Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    If you are running a truly balanced system (supports AES48), supposedly (at least per Ralph Karsten from Atmasphere) differences in XLR cable quality/sound are mitigated. While I am not sure if my Rogue and Zestos equipment supports AES48, they are supposedly truly balanced (per Nick from Rogue), and by far the least amount of improvement and differences in cables I've noticed are with XLR in my system. There are very slight differences in cymbal decay and perhaps bass, but really nothing that is worth spending mass money on. Even though I got good deals on the XLR cables I use now, I question whether it was worth it, and a simple Mogami based balanced cable would have sufficed. However, if you are running a single ended system with XLR connections for convenience, which apparently is most systems with XLR connections, perhaps "better" XLR cables may make more sonic difference, but that's a can of worms.
     
  8. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    no clouds parted going from benchmark mogami to van den hul hybrid ($200) but my system sounds noticeably clearer and more dynamic with the VDH.
    when i put the benchmark back in to check, the sound was such an instantly noticeable let down. this is the case between preamp and amp as well as XLR capable sources.
    more than worth it to me.
     
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  9. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Well, I'll be trying out a different balanced cable between my phono preamp and integrated amplifier in the next few days so will report back on my findings.

    The cable I currently have in use I've been running for at least 10-12 years. It is a Vampire Wire AI II interconnect (OCC copper) terminated with Vampire XLR's I believe and it was cryogenically treated when new. Bought it from Takefive Audio all those years ago.

    A friend's system is down for a while as he's just moved so I'll be borrowing an Audio Sensibility Statement SE in copper (AS also does a Silver Statement) that Steve Huang terminates with modified Furutech XLR's. Also an OCC copper cable (all other IC's and tonearm cables I have in use in the main system right now are Audio Sensibility and OCC: two tonearm cables and a single ended Statement SE that I just bought used which replaced Vampire CCC (continuous cast copper) terminated with some of Vampires better RCA's (not their top of the line but either 2nd or 3rd at the time going back about 15-20 years) and was a very noticeable improvement.

    I've come to the conclusion that I really like the sound of OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast copper) vs. other interconnect materials I've heard and this is purely subjective of course.

    I run fully balanced from two tonearms to phono stage as well and the Audio Sensibility tonearm cable was a significant jump up in performance (really significant actually) over the Jelco 506 which is Mogami based. I bought one AS tonearm cable initially (their Impact SE-it is a pretty inexpensive tonearm cable as far as things go) to replace the Jelco and very quickly bought another for the 2nd arm.

    I have no desire to spend money so if the AS balanced cable offers nothing more than the Vampire in use, it will simply be returned to my friend with a thank you. If there is a difference in sound quality, it will likely come down to wire geometry, quality of shielding, and quality of connectors I would say as both of these cables would appear to be very similar on the exterior and in the use of OCC copper.

    My system is posted.

    FWIW, I have read Ralph Karsten's thoughts on balanced cables essentially all sounding alike but have not found that to be the case (at least in terms of tonearm cables) in my system. But he makes very specific note of a balanced "standard" for lack of a better word, and perhaps my system just does not fit that bill.

    Will keep you posted. ;)
     
  10. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    I recently changed balanced cables between my P 7 preamp and A 21 amp from Analysis Plus Micro Copper Oval-in (or whatever they're called, at $330) to Synergistic Research Foundation, at $600. Now, I can't prove that expectation bias or other bias or faulty sonic memory isn't happening, but my impressions are that everything became more 'clear' and the depth/space solidity ("palpability") increased quite noticeably.

    Of course the increase in clarity was anticipated/expected seeing as the AP are copper and the SR silver. And, the increased space/depth palpability was what I was also mainly hoping to achieve.

    “I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.” - Cypher in The Matrix.
     
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  11. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    What we found is that we were very satisfied with the Cardas ones from Balanced Audio Cables at Blue Jeans Cable
     
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  12. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I thought Benchmark cables are made from Canare.
     
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  13. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    so they are, correct.
     
  14. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Professional audio guys are going to laugh you out of the room. They need XLR cables which can survive repeatedly getting yanked, dragged, rolled up, dropped, thrown, stepped on, and run over -- not ones which contain some magic pixie dust to please audiophiles.
     
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  15. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    why would they laugh? a case of differing priorities.
     
  16. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    And those differing priorities question the need for XLR in non-professional applications in the first place.
     
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  17. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    and they would be questions based on lack of experience with them in home audio.
     
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  18. yamfan

    yamfan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Missouri
    They wouldn't be laughing if they knew the crazy prices audiophiles pay for magic cables that have been blessed by the pope (well, not the latest socialist pope), they'd be marketing their own brand.
     
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  19. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    John Curl likes balanced connections in audio so that’s enough of an endorsement for me.
     
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  20. gakerty

    gakerty Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    Yes, cause they use properly balanced equipment that supports the AES standard, in which case as long as the cable is competently designed, sonic differences between cables are minimal. Most equipment audiophiles have isn't even balanced and is single ended in disguise, and probably couldn't even manage a long run. And did anymore mention pixie dust ITT?
     
  21. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    My Arcam C30 preamp is "balanced in disguise".:realmad::D
     
  22. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    So many hifi components with “balanced” connections are actually unbalanced with an XLR connection?
    That’s strange…
    I mean if it’s specified as balanced connections while running a single ended signal, it’s borderline fraud if you’d ask me.
     
    TarnishedEars likes this.
  23. oskar

    oskar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    I tested a few XLR cables and there is an audible difference between them.
    I don't know if You will hear a difference in Your room, with Your gear and Your ears.
    I know i hear in mine.
    If its worth it for You, to pay extra for that. That is a question You need to answer for Yourself.
     
    Rick58 likes this.
  24. Oelewapper

    Oelewapper Plays vinyl instead of installing it on the floor. Thread Starter

    To me, it’s mainly about reducing noise.
    Keeping the noise floor down.
    Not that I actually hear it at normal listening volumes; it’s mainly for making recordings as close to reference quality as possible.

    I did buy a different phono cable in order to change the color of the sound when using MM cartridges.
    Lower capacitance phono cables reduce the frequency response peak that’s between 10 ~ 20khz.
    It makes it more flat and MM cartridges sound more neutral because of that.
    It also helped me to get rid of the ever so slight hum I had coming from my turntable (was only audible at max volume without music playing).
    But XLR cables…
     
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  25. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    Seems like you don’t hear a difference or don’t believe there can be an audible difference between XLR cables?

    Materials and construction techniques (yes, even cryo treatment) can make changes in transmission of signals. Maybe not basic parameters R, L, C (or maybe they can and sometimes do). Maybe there’s things happening that we cannot measure, or haven’t found how to measure.

    Light interacting with matter, even something as simple as reflecting off a surface, is incredibly complex and things are happening at a subatomic scale that boggles the mind. Light is an electromagnetic wave, similar to electrical signals but at much higher frequencies. Why do we think that measuring RLC tells the whole story? Or that simple materials and construction must sound identical to more exotic?

    Sure, maybe a particular person cannot tell the difference, but some can. And each person has unique capabilities, thresholds of perception, etc., which can and do change with setting, mood, chemicals ingested, etc..
     

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