192kHz/24bit vs. 96kHz/24bit "debate"- Interesting revelation

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by mindblanking, May 10, 2013.

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  1. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Most audiophiles say the same thing. For some reason, those differences seem to disappear during controlled listening tests. That's why this debate still exists.
     
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  2. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Some people learn neat stuff from debating science, too.
     
    Jim N., GetHappy!! and Music Geek like this.
  3. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Peter Gabriel's "So" comes to mind immediately, "1984" by Van Halen, "Band on the Run" by Wings... and these are just on my laptop through so-so headphones. I can't wait to hear them through a Rega DAC on my main 2-channel rig.
     
  4. weirdo12

    weirdo12 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Do you know of a source of the material used in a controlled listening test?
     
  5. weirdo12

    weirdo12 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I have the Band on the Run Unlimited version but I don't think there's a 16/44 version that I can compare it to. It does sound great though.
     
  6. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    That was not the scenario which I was suggesting. I was talking about listening directly from the HD, not burning a CD frm the HD.
     
  7. mindblanking

    mindblanking The Bourbon King Thread Starter

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Oh, I understand. I may just have to figure out a way to test another meridian explorer.
     
  8. Music Geek

    Music Geek Confusion will be my epitaph

    Location:
    Italy
    There is so much to read in this thread that I won't have time to listen to music for the next month.
     
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  9. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Just make your own using a high-quality SRC and dither. That's the best way to compare, so you can be sure everything else is *exactly* the same other than the bit depth and sample rate.
     
  10. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Steve, what do you think of hirez playback? Do you find 24/192 or SACDs to sound better than CDs, all else being equal?
     
  11. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Here is a partial list of what was used in the Meyer/Moran study:

    Patricia Barber – Nightclub (Mobile Fidelity UDSACD 2004)
    Chesky: Various -- An Introduction to SACD (SACD204)
    Chesky: Various -- Super Audio Collection & Professional Test Disc (CHDVD 171)
    Stephen Hartke: Tituli/Cathedral in the Thrashing Rain; Hilliard Ensemble/Crockett (ECM New Series 1861, cat. no. 476 1155, SACD)
    Bach Concertos: Perahia et al; Sony SACD
    Mozart Piano Concertos: Perahia, Sony SACD
    Kimber Kable: Purity, an Inspirational Collection SACD T Minus 5 Vocal Band, no cat. #
    Tony Overwater: Op SACD (Turtle Records TRSA 0008)
    McCoy Tyner Illuminati SACD (Telarc 63599)
    Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon SACD (Capitol/EMI 82136)
    Steely Dan, Gaucho, Geffen SACD
    Alan Parsons, I, Robot DVD-A (Chesky CHDD 2003)
    BSO, Saint-Saens, Organ Symphony SACD (RCA 82876-61387-2 RE1)
    Carlos Heredia, Gypsy Flamenco SACD (Chesky SACD266)
    Shakespeare in Song, Phoenix Bach Choir, Bruffy, SACD (Chandos CHSA 5031)
    Livingston Taylor, Ink SACD (Chesky SACD253)
    The Persuasions, The Persuasions Sing the Beatles, SACD (Chesky SACD244)
    Steely Dan, Two Against Nature, DVD-A (24,96) Giant Records 9 24719-9
    McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clark and Al Foster, Telarc SACD 3488
     
  12. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Of course he does, otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't bother mastering things to SACD.
     
  13. ronankeane

    ronankeane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    I may be mistaken here (it's easy to get confused) but I still don't think you have enough comparisons to judge just the effect of 24/192 versus 24/96.

    Can you put on a fake moustache and go borrow that Meridian unit again?
     
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  14. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member

    Now this is the one post that makes sense in this thread. If you can hear it fine, if it sounds the same stop concerning yourself with the matter.
     
  15. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    Some of us want to know about the theory and science behind things, and don't take our own experience as gospel. Just because I can't hear it currently does not mean I'm not interested in digital audio theory and the results of listening tests.
     
  16. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    I would think that most mastering engineers would work just as hard for any format, but I would think that the higher the resolution the more flaws in the master get exposed and then one must decide how to deal with them.

    I would think that at 24/192, and certainly dsd, one would hear nearly exactly what is on the master tape. Now we are back to the recording engineer's work aren't we?
     
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  17. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member

    I understand but when it comes to the reproduction of sound doesn't how you perceive it mean more than what a bunch of people say you should be hearing?
     
  18. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    No kidding. I recently acquired my first ribbon mic, and... wow. The bass response on this thing is ridiculous (in a good way, that is... if used responsibly).
     
  19. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    There could be commercial considerations but in any event I am attempting to get him to share some views in detail.
     
  20. DragonQ

    DragonQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Moon
    This attitude is terrible.

    Ever since I started looking into "high end" audio a few years ago, I've pretty much always thought the analogue components are far more important than anything digital in the playback chain. Of course mastering is key but after that, microphones, speakers and amplifiers surely affect the sound far more than sample rate, speaker wire, or green marker pen. :D
     
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  21. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Do you have double blind listening tests done between green marker pen and microphone quality that have been published in a peer reviewed journal?
     
  22. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    I'm not sure what you mean by "microphone quality" and how that could be double-blind tested, but as far as the green pen goes...someone who really believes that works is welcome to do a trial! :D
     
  23. weirdo12

    weirdo12 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
  24. DragonQ

    DragonQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Moon
    My point is this. Microphones are simple to test - a £10 microphone (or, say, one on a laptop) sounds nothing like a studio microphone. What price range you need to reach to get similar performance is of course debatable but let's stick to cheap vs high-end. Similarly, £10 speakers sound nothing like high-end speakers (hell, my £250 Bose PC speakers sound like utter **** compared to my £250 Tannoy Mercury V4s...I'm glad I didn't pay for them :p). Anyone that's ever used video conferencing can attest to this.

    Now switch to thinking about DACs. Can you really say the difference between, say, an on-board audio chip found on a PC (which would've cost less than £10), and a DAC costing a few hundred pounds make such a huge difference to the sound, comparable to that made by the microphone and speakers? I have heard a couple of £100-200 DACs and, if there was a difference at all, it was insanely hard to tell. This is an area where I'd need to double blind test myself (or at least see some results of others) to know whether it's worth spending money in this area. Even if it turns out that it is worth it, it clearly has a lower priority compared to the speakers of my system.

    I am unaware of any trials of green marker pens but I find it hard to believe that none has been done. I hope you aren't suggesting that I should believe it has an effect until I see some evidence to the contrary. :D
     
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  25. Spek

    Spek Well-Known Member

    Location:
    DFW, TX
    I agree. The way audiophiles talk about DACs, I was expecting to hear the standard "night-and-day" difference. I was very surprised when I didn't, even listening to DACs in the $5,000 - $10,000 range. I would definitely have to ABX myself to see if I could hear that difference or not. Based on what I read, I figured that even if I didn't find an audible difference between hi-res and redbook, that I would still hear differences in high-end DACs compared to mid-priced DACs. It was a sighted test so there could have been some subconscious biases at play for sure.

    I have definitely been told this before...not about green pens in particular, but about tweaks in general. :rolleyes:
     
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