1959: Today at the 30th Street Studio

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DMortensen, Jan 15, 2019.

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  1. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    I wonder if the fact that apparently none of these songs were released means that this was indeed the first session and they were trying to see what she could do, particularly if there was a question about her current vocal abilities?
     
  2. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 4 (Wednesday) 1 of 4:

    From 10am-1pm was the first of three same-time sessions on consecutive days for both Billy Butterfield and Ray Conniff, doing "joint sessions".

    Songs recorded overall were:

    South Of The Border
    Rosalie
    What A Difference A Day Made
    Oh What A Beautiful Morning
    Something To Remember You By
    Song Of The Trumpet
    All The Things You Are
    Beyond The Blue Horizon
    Time On My Hands
    I Found A Million Dollar Baby
    Can't We Be Friends
    You Must Have Been A Beautiful Baby


    Leader:
    Ray Conniff
    Contractor and Bass:
    Frank Carroll*
    Drums:
    David A. Francis*
    Guitar:
    Al Caiola*
    Don Arone (Arnone?)*
    Trumpet:
    Billy Butterfield*
    Piano:
    Buddy Weed*
    Robert Kitsis
    Vibraphone:
    Doug Allen

    *Musicians played on all three sessions. All others on one session only.

    The Wikipedia for Billy Butterfield helpfully discloses that he and Ray Conniff recorded the album "Conniff Meets Butterfield" in 1959, and looking at it reveals that all these songs are on that album. There are 26 versions of the album on Discogs, so it must (?) have been a big seller. The UK version has the clearest text for the rear cover so we can maybe read the notes, so here it is:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Ray Conniff was an interesting guy.

    Since Frank Laico routinely engineered Conniff sessions, he may have been the engineer today, too, but I have no proof.

    There is no producer listed for today's session, but John Hammond is listed for the Coniff/Butterfield and Conniff alone sessions tomorrow, maybe it was him? Although looking further, Al Ham is shown for the final one, so who knows?

    The album notes by Fred Danzig give some history for the two headliners, but only names pianist Buddy Weed.

    Could this Fred Danzig be this Fred Danzig? He was an entertainment writer before he went to Ad Age.

    Edit: Oh, and Panama Francis was the drummer for these sessions, as well as the ubiquitous contractor and bassist Frank Carroll
     
  3. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 4 (Wednesday) 2 of 4:

    Ray Conniff also had the session today from 2:30-5:30pm today, continuing from the previous day.

    Ah, after a little confusion here, I see that the Ray Conniff session for yesterday is misfiled in the Reports, and there are musicians and songs listed for it and the session tomorrow as well.

    Here are the songs recorded over the three sessions:

    Hands Across The Table
    Love Is The Sweetest Thing
    It's Been A Long Long Time
    You're An Old Smoothie
    The Talk Of The Town
    They Say It's Wonderful
    Zip-A-Dee Doo-Dah
    Rosalie
    Buttons And Bows
    Let's Put Out The Lights
    My Heart Cries For You
    Deep In The Heart Of Texas
    They Tried To Tell Me
    (single)
    Christmas Brite (single)

    Hey, hey, hey, HEY! You're An Old Smoothie is the song we used when I interviewed Frank Laico for the first time in public and he analyzed its recording methodology. Click that link to watch the first half of that video; I think the Ray Conniff discussion was in the middle of this this half somewhere.

    So I think it's safe to say that Frank Laico was indeed the engineer for both these sessions.

    Let's look at the players for this second session today:

    Leader:
    Ray Conniff
    Contractor and Bass:
    Frank Carroll
    Drums:
    David A. Francis
    Guitar:
    Al Caiola
    Don Arnone
    Piano:
    Buddy Weed (one hour extra each session)
    Harp:
    Janet Putnam (only played 2 sessions)
    Organ:
    Robert Kitsis (only played 2 sessions)

    Yup, they were all doing two gigs today, too, except for the add-on people.

    In the video Frank talks about trying to get a distinctive pulsing sound on the bass for Old Smoothie, and how he succeeded.

    Here it is on Youtube:



    Once again, the UK album back is slightly more readable on Discogs, so here they all are:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    On the UK labels, the numbers and names to the right of the center hole are the publishing companies? Is this standard, instead of having it part of the credits with each song?
     
  4. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 4 (Wednesday) 3 of 4:

    From 7-10pm Lee Castle and the Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra continued their recording.
     
  5. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 4 (Wednesday) 4 of 4:

    From 11:30pm-2:30am, The Four Lads with Mitch Miller producing did their thing.

    No further information that I can find.
     
  6. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    To paraphrase a selection from one of Rodgers & Hammerstein's well-known musicals . . .
    "Is . . . a possibility!"
     
  7. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    Even though some of the instruments were different, I noticed a similarity to 'Sing Along With Mitch' sessions in terms of the spare, minimalist instrumentation.
     
  8. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    The publishers next to a number correspond to which one published what song. This was standard on some if not all UK labels at the time. It certainly differed from U.S. releases, on which stock Columbia LP's had no publishing info whatsoever for each song on the label.

    The way the tracks are laid out at bottom is similar to how Terre Haute laid out things, I can tell you that.
     
  9. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca
    what an amazing thread. i'm out of my depth, except to say. i had the good fortune to crawl the floors as a child at 51w52nd st when my pop was working for/with hammond under leiberson circa 61-65. i don't ever recall going to sessions in nyc though. best i can do is dylan hanging about and the yardbirds "for your love" test pressings on epic in '64

    if you ever replicate this with columbia's LA studios at gower and sunset, that would be great. those were amazing rooms and i was there and by then old enough not to be "crawling".

    again, kudos for the thread.
     
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  10. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Aaarggghhhh. I guess I screwed up that link to Frank's video, if it looks to everyone like it looks to me.

    Here is what it should have been

    (EDIT: Still something wrong with that link. Let's see if this fixes it.) (Second one works.)

    EDIT 2: (Didn't fix it. Bummer.)

    EDIT 3: I can watch it but not link to it. Goofy.

    That is part one. Here is Part two, which has about Frank Laico working with Frank Sinatra

    2008-12-16 Frank Laico: Anatomy of a Session Pt II

    Sorry for the mistake.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
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  11. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    This is pretty cool information, and if you'd like to elaborate what your Dad did with Hammond and Lieberson we are all ears.

    When you say 51 W. 52nd, was that Black Rock, the big office building? The studios we are familiar with were at 49 E. 52nd and I'm not so familiar with other addresses.

    One of the things that's fascinating to me that we really haven't talked about too much/enough is that those buildings including the Columbia studio complex at 799 7th Avenue, were all on 52nd St, which was also loaded with Jazz clubs for a very long time until they were all torn down to make way for what's there now, which is a bunch of great big office buildings.

    There are lots of pictures, stories, and recordings of how during its jazz heyday that couple blocks of 52nd was 24 hour a day music, with crowds moving from one club to another as they felt like it. Having Columbia's recording studios right there must have been frequently convenient, but I haven't heard enough about what that means.

    There is a cool book called "The Street That Never Slept", by Arnold Shaw (geez, that's a lot more than I paid for mine) which is a fan and participant's homage to that place and time. If you or anyone is interested and can find it in a library it's a fun read about how it changed over the years. Running a jazz club is a precarious business and they came and went with alacrity.

    Thanks for the compliments, BTW, I'm really glad you are liking the thread.
     
  12. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    EDIT 4, done past the editing deadline: If you want to watch that video, search Youtube for DansoundSeattle, which is my channel. This video's title is "2008-12-16 Frank Laico: Anatomy of a Session Pt. I"
     
  13. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca
    yes as i recall. the cbs/columbia address in early 60's was 51w52nd. black rock, yes. separate from the studios you mentioned also on 52nd. but i'm no "historian". i was just barely alive. this is my background by familial extension.

    upon signing dylan ( according to both hammond and dylan in their respective autobiographies ) the first call was made to my pop to assist in the launch of dylan. this in '61 and well before "blowing in the wind". here is a link to the first known dylan interview in '61 conducted with dylan and my paterfamilia. they refer in print to "hammond's folly" but my pop had a lot to do with making this "happen" alas, history is written by the "winners", so don't ask clive about dylan's early career at columbia. he'll just tell you he went to monterey wearing a nehru jacket and beads and just "felt it". with his "checkbook a&r".

    Bob Dylan: The First Interview. By Billy James : Articles, reviews and interviews from Rock's Backpages.

    i just remember the guy back then as a scruffy kid that everyone lavished praise upon and this included trips to the newport folk festival(s) circa 61 thru 64 and his visits to our nyc apt. even as a kid, i recognized "talent". i had no choice.

    yes, again..great thread. thanks for the "welcome". i haven't talked music in 25 years. but you guys are saving me from "politics" and chewing off my arm.

    better link ( sorry ) Bob Dylan: The First Interview - TeachRock
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
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  14. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca
    btw.. my pops cousin owned the village vanguard. talk about legendary music 24/7? whew. i remember miles and all of 'em back then. and cherry cokes.
     
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  15. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Max Gordon? How cool is that!?!!

    Here's a nice article by Ashley Kahn about the Vanguard at 70, with some history.

    Regarding that Dylan interview from October 1961: was there only one or did he spread those various lies and exaggerations more widely? It's fun to read it but as I understand it there's a lot of tall tales in that article. It reads like a current government position paper or something. And I went back and read in John Hammond's autobio how your Dad and Hammond were the only two for a while who thought that Dylan was a genius, and then kept on reading that infectious book. Hammond was pretty incredible, what a judge of talent! He recognized that Dylan had charisma in spades, regardless of anything else, and your dad's article really shows it despite the leg-pulling or maybe because of it.

    Is your Dad still kicking? Give him our regards, if so. Thanks for turning us on to him. Is there more of his writing? It seems like he was in a great place at a great time. You are lucky to have been there and aware at least somewhat of what was going on.
     
  16. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca

    yeah, his cousin was Lorraine Gordon, Max's wife of.. forever... she passed away not long ago.

    re the dylan 61 interview. only the one i'm aware of. notable as it is the "first". dylan clearly made **** up. beginning with his name HA! who knows. i was 4 at the time. but i do remember him and mostly from the blonde on blonde era in LA.

    and yes, hammond was quite kind in his memoirs regarding my pops inclusion and input into dylan's early career. it's an incredible read, I should re-visit it. it's been decades since I read it. that is where the "hammond's folly" nonsense presumably began. as to his health, he's fine and salty as ever. its an inherited trait!

    thanks for asking and for the kind words....
     
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  17. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I hope you don't mind my asking: if your dad is, Billy, are you Marcus? I understand that Billy once oversaw a Blues Project recording session in Los Angeles in 1966, but couldn't take credit for it since he worked for Columbia and the Blues Project were on as different label. So the producer credit on the album was listed as Marcus James.
     
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  18. bosto

    bosto Forum Resident

    "Anybody recognize the kid? That would be awesome if it was somebody we knew."

    I believe that is Mitch's son Mitchell. He's also shown on the Christmas Sing Along album. Wikipedia lists him as "Mitchell Miller Jr. or "Mike Miller".

    The Sing Along albums are among my first memories. My grandma had them all and I enjoyed listening to them as a young tyke. Even back then, I was amazed at the sound of the recordings, which I now know was due to the 30th street studio and the engineers that worked on the recordings.

    "So they put them inside somehow, in what looks like a gatefold. It doesn't seem to be a double album."

    After the success of the first 2 albums, all the remaining Sing Along LPs were manufactured in a gatefold. The production costs on these gatefolds must have been high - they are all printed on high gloss and built with heavy cardboard. The singalong sheets were also included either attached by staple or inserted into the sleeve. From 1959 through 1961, these albums were extremely popular with 3 or 4 albums released each year and most making the top 10.

    It's great to finally know who the harmonica player was, as well as the other players. I always enjoyed the sound of his harmonica. Turns out he was one of the best in the world and had quite a career. Eddie Manson info here. Charles Magnante, the accordion player, was also top in his game. Of course, guitar player Al Caiola had a tremendous career as well.

    Thanks for this awesome thread!
     
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  19. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Hammond discovered many people who were ignored by the "experts", so I think there were a number of Hammond's Follies over the years where he got the last laugh, but Dylan may have been the most unlikely discovery from the get-go.

    When I started reading about your Dad in Hammond's autobiography I had to make an effort to stop after finishing that chapter. He and the Ertegun brothers were incredible people in a couple similar ways. Ahmet's bio is equally fascinating but sadly off topic here. (I like bios.)

    Glad your Dad is doing well; if he has any stories to share, especially about 30th St., I hope we get to hear them.

    (That's a hint. Another hint: use a video camera and don't wait. Speaking from experience - see earlier video links. Last hint: use an external mic and get it close to him if at all possible and connect headphones so you can tell that it's actually working and recording.)

    Also glad that his health and longevity are inherited and presumably passed on!
     
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  20. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 5 (Thursday) 1 of 3 posts:

    The series of Ray Conniff with Billy Butterfield sessions continued from 10am-1pm

    The series of Ray Conniff sessions continued from 2:30-5:30pm.

    John Hammond produced both, and one would presume that Frank Laico engineered both.
     
  21. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca
    yeah thats me. i produced "flute thing" credited along on the lp with tom wilson, dylan's first producer. al kooper in his own autobiography called me the youngest record producer in the history of the music business. i havent worked since. ha.

    remember also.. in the early days... all one needed to know, to be a record producer was where to get corned beef sandwiches at 3 am.
     
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  22. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca
    yes, he has stories to share. they all begin with "if i've told you this already, stop me" HA

    add: who and why'd my "screen name" change to "known member"?! i'd prefer "almost infamous".
     
  23. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 5 (Thursday) 2 of 3:

    From 7-10pm, Andre Kostelanetz and His Orchestra recorded

    Aloha
    Song Of The Islands
    Aloha Finale
    Kashmiri Song
    Sweet Leilani
    Etenraku
    Lotus Land
    Now Is The Hour


    I didn't realize Andre was big on Country and Western.

    Seriously, though, there's an obvious theme there, and sure enough, the resulting album is called "The Lure Of Paradise"

    [​IMG]

    That's an artful cover.

    Again, the rear jacket photos on Discogs are mostly blurry; this was the least blurry one:

    [​IMG]

    Criminey, the notes are by James Michener! I bet Goddard arranged that and enjoyed doing so.

    Here are the best labels I could quickly find

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The session was produced by Irving Townsend.

    There were a LOT of musicians; I'll let you count them.

    Leader:
    Andre Kostelanetz
    Contractor:
    Louis Shoobe
    Violin:
    Jack Zayde
    George Ockner
    Maurice Wilk
    Stefan Frenkel
    Raoul Poliakin
    Gabriel Banat
    Bernard Ocko
    Harry Glickman
    Leo Kruczek
    Max Hollander
    Leon Goldstein
    Jascha Herzog
    Harry Cykman
    Julius Brand
    Jacques Margolies
    Leonid Bolotine
    Maurice Golodner
    Don Asch
    Harp:
    Gloria Agostini
    Viola:
    Richard Dickler
    Theodore Adoff
    Emanuel Hirsh
    Jack Braunstein
    George Brown
    Sidney Brecher
    Cello:
    Harvey Shapiro
    David Soyer
    Anthony Sophos
    Martin Lake
    Seymour Barab
    Abram Borodkin
    Bass:
    Milton J. Hinton
    Reuben Jamitz
    Flute:
    Victor Just
    Romeo M. Penque
    Al Howard
    Oboe:
    Harry Shulman
    Saxophone:
    Carl Perkel
    Herbert Lytle
    Paul J. Ricci
    Trumpet:
    Charles Margulis
    Emanuel Weinstock
    Melven Solomon
    Trombone:
    Sy Shaffer
    Laurence Altpeter
    French Horn:
    Fred Klein
    Tony Miranda
    Guitar:
    George Barr
    Alex E. Caiola
    Drums:
    Milton Schlesinger
    Martin Grupp
    Ted Sommer
    Piano:
    Samuel Liner

    I think the last time we saw Andre he was conducting the NY Philharmonic; are some of these musicians from there? I have no idea how to look that up.

    Andre's home page at Discogs shows him in action, likely at 30th St.

    Louis Shoobe is in a number of places as a contractor in the archives, but looking him up online doesn't yield much that's directly quotable. His career was as a bassist, and he for sure played a lot with Raymond Scott, starting in the 1930's. Raymond Scott was the composer of that great music that was used in Warner Brothers cartoons. Shoobe's real name was probably Shoubel, and he is listed on at least one song playing bass with Louis Armstrong in those early days.
     
  24. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    March 5 (Thursday) 3 of 3:

    The final session of the day was from 11:30pm-2:30am, and was for the advertising agency Foote, Cone, and Belding.

    Huh; it was bought by Albert Lasker in 1912, who was "the father of modern advertising", and sold by him in 1942 to the guys who it is still more or less named for (now "FCB").

    This was one of the many "Trans" sessions, and I hope to learn someday what that was all about.
     
  25. rkt88

    rkt88 The unknown soldier

    Location:
    malibu ca
    were you aware that hammond was a "vanderbilt"? interesting...

    again, thanks for the kindness and well wishes etc. i also really enjoy music biz bio's but also the "laurel canyon" books. i get to shake my head in dismay at all the **** they get completely wrong. EXCEPT for barney hoskyn's "hotel california" ( brilliant and accurate book ) and also, i'm sure you've read fred goodman's "mansion on a hill" too. just to pick two.. fascinating read(s).

    but PLS.. forgive me for the Off Topic topics and "threadjack" wasn't my intention, though its a joy to reminisce. again, thanks.

    add: to your point also.. i never could pronounce ahmet's brothers name right HA! AND.. don't ya love the fact that goddard signed all his memos "God"? HA!!
     
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