2021's David Bowie box set 5 (Speculation Thread)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Slave2chaos, Jul 19, 2018.

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  1. EdwinM

    EdwinM Grumpy old man

    Location:
    Leusden
    Starting with Low most of the Ryko bonustracks are versions which Bowie finished in 1988 - 1991: Some Are, All Saints, Abdulmajid, I Pray Ole, Look back in Anger.
     
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  2. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Sure the S&V tour will get a release - by why are you convinced that it has to be in the box? What about the non-boxset live albums that have been coming out the last few years, like Cracked Actor and Welcome To The Blackout? Both first appeared as RSD vinyl releases followed by a general CD release a few weeks (or months) later. Why can't they release a S&V concert that way? Why do you think it must be included in the next box?

    If the next box is a "Bowie Box" then sure - there's a good chance it would be included, but it seems a pretty big stretch to think that a 'Tin Machine Box' would include a non-Tin Machine disc - especially when there's other more logical alternatives available. Its not like its an either or: include it in a box OR don't release it at all!

    Plus I think what would essentially be a "greatest hits live disc" taken from a "greatest hits tour" (which S&V pretty much was) would sell pretty well as a standalone release. It would seem foolish to bury it as a boxset exclusive.
     
  3. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    ...and the ones before that (not to mention the ones from Low onwards that ARE 100% vintage 1970s recordings)? So you want/expect less than a quarter of the Ryko bonus tracks to be included on the next box?

    I suppose its possible, but highly unlikely. I'd say it's FAR more likely to be an all or nothing proposition - and if that's the case which do you honestly think is more likely?
     
  4. EdwinM

    EdwinM Grumpy old man

    Location:
    Leusden
    I expect that some of these will show up on the ReCall. Some other Ryko tracks did show up on previous boxes as well. Some on The Gouster, some on live albums, some on ReCall. And since these are tracks on which David probably worked with Gabrel Reeves (exact origin is often unknown) they would fit perfectly in the box set. I mean, finished between 1988 and 1991, released in 1991. Where else would they go.
     
  5. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Where else would they go? Do you really think these boxes are the final round of milking the catalog that the estate's planning to do?

    The Gouster isn't relevant (or at least its presentation on the box makes the tracks it had in common with the Ryko tracks irrelevant). It (and its contents) were clearly presented as a "lost album" created and finished by Bowie at the time and intended/readied for release (until Lennon got involved at the 11th hour bumping those Gouster tracks off, resulting in Young Americans). I suppose you could argue that they used The Gouster as an excuse to include some Ryko tracks, but I'd argue that they included The Gouster purely as boxset bait - A "box exclusive" "Lost Bowie album". If those tracks never came out on Ryko, then they would have debuted on 'The Gouster' album that was included in the box.

    The Ryko tracks that were included on the ReCalls were period single sides released in the time frame of the boxes they appeared on. They weren't "Ryko tracks". They were previously released tracks that Ryko happened to use later as bonus tracks - as opposed to the previously unreleased tracks that debuted as Ryko bonus tracks, and therefore they are totally irrelevant in a discussion of Ryko tracks.

    Was the Alabama Song/Space Oddity single released in Feb of 1980 "two Ryko tracks" or was it a single released in Feb 1980? The fact that they also happened to later appear as bonus tracks on a Ryko disc is a 100% irrelevent coincidence.

    As far as live tracks go - do you really think they ever gave a thought about the fact that 2 or 3 tracks from Nassau Coliseum had already appeared as Ryko bonus tracks? If they did, do you think they cared? Do you think they thought "Oh we better leave those tracks off the new otherwise complete release of that concert" or "We better think twice about including them because that could set a Ryko-expectation precedent for these boxes."

    Anyway you must feel quite certain the next box won't be a 'Tin Machine Box'. Personally I'm assuming (though not totally convinced) it will be a 'Tin Machine Box' but who knows.

    Anyway, the only Ryko track that has even the tiniest logical right to be included on a Tin Machine box is "Look Back In Anger" and even that's a stretch.
     
  6. EdwinM

    EdwinM Grumpy old man

    Location:
    Leusden
    '
    There will be more milking (looks at two boxes with replica acetates). So the early seventies left overs will probably be covered in some new package. But the unique thing is that the low/heroes/lodger bonus tracks included songs did not really belong there. So we get now a box covering that period (1988-91) and I think Parlophone can go left or right with these tracks. But we'll see.

    If it is a Tin Machine box, it will be much smaller than the previous ones.
     
  7. Colocally

    Colocally One Of The New Wave Boys

    Location:
    Surrey BC.
    It would be great if the remake of Look Back In Anger appeared on Recall for the next box, as it isn't a track that was recorded in the 70s, it was an entirely new recording from 1988 and the first time that Reeves and Bowie worked together. It is for that sake a really important link in the formation of Tin Machine.
     
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  8. Jmac1979

    Jmac1979 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I would love it if these Ryko bonus tracks show up as well as some of the stuff on the S+V box set that hasn't shown up on this year. I suppose it counts since they were officially "released" in 1989 onward (just like those live duets with Tina Turner counted for 1988 even though they were recorded in 1985, but her live album was released in 88), and not only that, they could have more drawing power than Tin Machine/BTWN era stuff on their own does.
     
  9. Colocally

    Colocally One Of The New Wave Boys

    Location:
    Surrey BC.
    Most of the tracks would be anachronistic to turn up on the next box set.

    I just made some CDrs and fitted them into the other box sets.
    For example, in WCIBN there is this companion Recall disc.
    [​IMG]
    For ANCIANT there is this;
    [​IMG]
    and for Five years, I have one disc which has some alternate Trident mixes from HD and Ziggy, with some of the Ryko stuff added and then yesterday I compiled this collection.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. TonyCzar

    TonyCzar Forum Resident

    Location:
    PhIladelphia, PA
    Boxbait or not, "Gouster" was a "finished", sequenced, but unreleased album, and Bowie went on the road playing songs from it. I think it's the most sensible (if not economical) presentation yet of the "Young Americans" ephemera. No reading teeny-tiny trainspotting notes, etc. It's like, "You had this album, and then BOOM, you had that one." Simple story, if only 97% complete. Easy to get.

    Tracks which were actually the original concept got treated over the years as afterthoughts and leftovers. The released 1975 album was the afterthought. The afterthought included his 1st US #1 single.

    And The Rykos were 30 years ago. And the 2007 EMI is ancient history now, too.
     
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  11. TonyCzar

    TonyCzar Forum Resident

    Location:
    PhIladelphia, PA
    I'm afraid you're dodging the Real Issue, which is: "Still using Winamp?".

    'Cause if so, that's awesome. I miss it.

    But anyway, yes, I "rolled my own" ReCalls on a couple of the boxes. I didn't make any use of the Ryko bonuses anywhere, even though I have a near-complete set of the individual CDs. (I did use 1 track off the Ryko double-CD "Singles", and "Fame '90").
     
  12. Colocally

    Colocally One Of The New Wave Boys

    Location:
    Surrey BC.
    Yeah still using Winamp occasionally, cannot use the latest version, because it no longer supports burning discs, so have to use an older version, but it is still my player of choice.
     
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  13. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I don't think there has been a president has there? There haven't been any tracks to choose from previously, other than John I'm Only Dancing (again) and that had already been included in the previous box because of the Gouster release (which broke the original president of only tracks actually released in each boxes time frame were to be included). I agree I think that it's unlikely but they now become contemporary releases in this boxes timeline and, as has been mentioned previously, there are some tracks that actually originate from this period.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
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  14. Django216

    Django216 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Every major tour had an album so far - I don't think that they will stop this.
    The boxes are cleary marked with Year XXXX - Year XXXX. The Sound + Vision Tour happend in 1990 and it would just not feel right to me if Parlophone leave this out.
    The RSD Releases on the other hand where alternative albums to Live-material presented in the box.

    I am pretty sure that they easily find another excuse to include S+V. I read somewhere that there were plans to make an album out of the tour back in the days and there are many broadcasted shows.
    I just hope that they won't screw up the chronogical order...
     
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  15. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I wonder if they will ask Gabrels to mess up these releases like Visconti has been doing? Perhaps we'll see Black Tie White Noise in the style of You've Been Around from The Sacred Squall Of Now with the comment "I asked Bowie once, when we we off our heads, and he thought this is how Black Tie White Noise should have always sounded so now you're hearing the album as I..... I mean Bowie always wanted you to hear it!"
     
  16. Django216

    Django216 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    My guess would be that Nile Rodger remasterd this one - he already was "arround" for Let's Dance and sounded very proud of his work in the book...
     
  17. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    A president? No. But there had been a precedent (going all the way back to the first box) to exclude tracks that debuted as Ryko bonus tracks, with a handful of very specific and easily explained exceptions - such as can't include The Gouster album in the box without (coincidentally) including some Ryko debuting tracks.

    Originate as in "were completely recorded in this period" or originate as in "were vintage tracks that were revived/overdubbed/completed in this period"? The only track I'm totally sure was a completely new era correct recording was the 1988 recorded 'Look Back In Anger' and being from/recorded in 1988 wouldnt it belong on the previous box? "John I'm Only Dancing (Again)" was recorded in 1974, but was originally released in 1979 - and where did it end up? They put it on the box covering the 1974-76 era (12" on Gouster and 7" edit on that box's ReCall disc).
     
  18. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    And the reason given for excluding these was because they were not "contemporary" (ie they weren't released in the time period of each box), this is why the Gouster was breaking their own rules! In this box the Ryko extras are/would be "contemporary" releases even if they were recorded years previously they fit the original premise (as I understood it)! I still don't think they will be included.
     
  19. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Actually its apples and oranges. The fact that some of the Gouster tracks just happened to debut as Ryko tracks is irrelevant to their position/inclusion on Gouster. Gouster was completely its own thing. It was an album fully intended to be released at the time. Is that stretching their own rules? Probably. Is it them breaking their own rules by including tracks that were first released by Ryko? No because whether those Gouster tracks debuted as Ryko tracks or not is completely irrelevant to their rightful position as Gouster tracks, in the very same way previously released singles appeared on the ReCalls because they were previously released singles, and not because they had appeared as Ryko bonus tracks.

    Gouster was recorded, mixed, sequenced and ready to go to the pressing plant before Lennon became involved which forced the changes. It was either put the Lennon tracks out as a non-album single, just leave them on the shelf indefinitely, or incorporate them into a revamped version of The Gouster which is what he did which gave us the Young Americans album we've known for over 40 years. Certainly commercially he had made the right choice considering the boost to his own career the song 'Fame' gave him, as both a single US#1 and as an album US Top 10.

    Name me some previously Ryko exclusives that have appeared so far on any of these boxes - outside of those included on Gouster, or a live album.

    THAT would be them breaking their own rules!
     
  20. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    You agree that the previously unreleased Ryko track were first released in '89 to '91. That fits the rules (as I understand them) if they want it to. If they hadn't included the Gouster in the second box I would have expected John I'm Only Dancing (Again) to have appeared in the third box aligning with it's release date, not it's recording date. Would you have felt that, if John I'm Only Dancing (Again) was in the third box, this was breaking the rules?
     
  21. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    That's a pretty big stretch of the rules, innit? (past the breaking point I'd say!) Including things like 'Lightning Frightning' or 'Sweet Head' on an early 90s era Bowie box. Should we also expect that they may include the 1965 demos first released in 1991 on Rhino's 'Early On' comp in the next box as well. Or expect them to include on the box after that the vintage outtakes first released this century on the two self-titled albums deluxe editions 1967 and 1969?


    Stretching the rules? Probably. Breaking the rules? Probably not, but it would largely depend on a study of Bowie's sessionography to see how many (if any) times he pulled older unreleased tracks off the shelf to include on a subsequent album (not to mention how old they were at the time he did so) The only one that comes immediately to mind is 'It Ain't Easy' recorded for Hunky Dory and included on Ziggy Stardust the next year.

    On a side note how many people even knew at the time that the 1979 single release was recorded five years earlier? It seems to me it was presented as being current on release, along with Alabama Song which was a couple years old on release (but certainly not advertised as such). It seems Bowie was putting out a few non-album singles of mostly outtakes/re-records (1980-82) I'm assuming to try to burn through the remainder of his RCA contract as soon/as fast as possible, so he could start earning some real money that he didn't have to share with DeFries.

    OTOH the Low - Scary Monsters Ryko exclusives were very specifically notated as being vintage tracks (how much of their origins appeared in the final product is another question). But everything bar 'Look Back In Anger' was absolutely presented/pretended(?) to be vintage (IIRC they all were credited as being recorded between 1977-79.

    So which would seem stranger to a casual non-obsessive fan - a song appearing as a single being included in the box of the era that single (which was not presented at the time as being five years old) was released, or a handful of tracks long credited as being vintage being included on a box covering an era over a decade later than they were credited as belonging to?

    Plus do we know which ones and how much of the content of those tracks was vintage/new - even now? Do we know if they were re-recorded from scratch, as opposed to being late 70s outtakes with then-modern late 80s overdubs? Or if they are 100% recorded in the late 80s, was that also when they were written? How can we know any of this for sure?

    The guy who put the Rykos together was interviewed saying that Bowie personally held his late 70s archive materials, and as such he just accepted what Bowie (somewhat reluctantly, since Ryko demanded bonus tracks as part of the deal and Bowie wasn't actually keen on including any) gave him. For the earlier albums he was able to listen to what Bowie didn't personally hold and make choices that he'd run by Bowie, some of which were shot down, but one of which (can't remember which track - Ziggy era though IIRC) be actually was able to convince Bowie to change his mind on and approve.
     
  22. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Well we obviously have very different ideas on this! It’s not really that important and I do doubt that the bonus tracks will appear for many of the reasons you state, however, I still feel they can appear
     
  23. Markyp

    Markyp Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louth
    Is there anywhere where the rules are listed by Parlophone or have we just inferred them from what’s been released?
    One rule was that the name of the box set was from a Bowie ‘deep cut’ and didn’t repeat the name of a previous single/ album release. That changed for the Loving the Alien box so the rules are fluid.
    I personally think they will bend or break rules if it would lead to greater sales.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  24. Except it’s not a Tin Machine but a Bowie track with Reeves playing on it.
     
  25. EdwinM

    EdwinM Grumpy old man

    Location:
    Leusden
    Which brings us to the name of the set... You belong in rock 'n roll would sound good:D
     
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