And the groove patterns in the vinyl dont equate to the running order above. Even Shardender has acknowledged that. I could make one of these tonight, hot water, soap, 2 cheap FZ USA Time LPs, and a bit of chalk. And yes, these were on ebay, honest. Any other evidence ?
Where's your evidence that these were on eBay? The photo is from Facebook by a well known collector who Rob Caiger of FTM also knows about! @ShardEnder actually acknowledged this...
Yep, those acetates form one of three documented early revisions we know about for Time - it seems as if Jeff was initially playing around with the idea of a double album, but kept cutting it down (likely because there wasn't the material to justify having only 15-6 minutes per side). Those images and the running order were provided by the owner of these discs, which are indeed sourced from a cassette copy of the same tracklist. If this may seem unprecedented, the March '83 acetates for Secret Messages were also cut from a tape, with this being used for the 2018 2LP reissue after a few changes were made.
popsike.com - Jet FZ 37371 ELO ?–Time 12” 33rpm ACETATE SIDE A. VG US. Contains "Bouncer" - auction details Looks very similar or identical, but is a single LP and claims to have the bouncer on it. DISCOVERY - welcome to the show - Jeff Lynne & ELO news - 01/02/03/04/2018 , then look for TIME - ACETATE ALBUM very unusual to have 2 wholes in an LP, bit of a coincident I know Rob, been out for drinks and to gigs with him. so what ? Not sure thats evidence. Acetates were never cut from cassettes, professional studio tapes yes. How do we know the sides were switched, oh some one from a facebook group told us. Sorry, this is not evidence. Saying something repeatedly does not make it true.
Let's see if I can shed further light on what are three very different variations of familiar material, sorted by date of creation... V1 Curiously, this one appears to match side A of the album as we know it, though based on the etching and its banding, we have The Bouncer moved to the penultimate track, where it really doesn't fit thematically. My guess is that Jeff had decided to reduce the album down to a single disc, but was yet to reach what he felt was a satisfactory running order. V2 After the March '83 acetates, these have become the new holy grail for many ELO collectors. Sourced from a cassette, containing two previously unreleased songs and two others described by their last-known owner as being alternate mixes. Why switch from a single LP to a double then set back again? Each side clocks in at 15-6 minutes, so this was probably closer to an experiment than indicative of some greater intention. (At this point, it's no secret that Jeff was desperate to get out of his remaining contractual obligations any way he could.) V3 The final tracklist, as evidenced by its visible bands being consistent with a retail copy of Time and even the serial number matching up. P.S. The early 3-4-83 version of Secret Messages that surfaced last year was originally from a cassette belonging to a band member, and several bonus tracks on the 2007 expanded remaster for Balance Of Power were restored from a tape provided by session engineer Bill Bottrell. While such sources are unlikely, they aren't entirely unheard of, especially not when you're dealing with a band where anything else - such as multitracks - may be long gone.
Sorry you have lost me. Time was released in 1981 and you are referencing acetates from 1983. Are we talking about the same thing ?
That was purely for frame of reference to indicate that such a practice wasn't isolated to a single instance.
We have a direct quote confirming the existence of Time in its abandoned 2LP form: "It was gonna be [a double album], and then it didn't be." (Jeff Lynne, 06-06-2001)
How anyone could forget those amazing Jeff Lynne liner notes is beyond me. Filled with anecdotes and insights!
That would be Rockline with Bob Coburn (RIP) I was another caller on the show. R O C K L I N E According to an old interview with Bev Bevan, he claimed that 17 tracks were made for the Time album.
and again, how does that prove its a double album ? yes, enough tracks for a double but recording B sides was the norm at recording sessions in the 70s and 80s. How many of the tracks were rejected by Jeff or recorded as potential B sides or were demos or recorded to give to other artists ........ ?
Jeffs quotes as so tongue in check or accurate. What did he say about the Great Balls of Fire track on Flashback, you know the one he had just remastered for the box set. You got the Big Al album that Jeff said he was going to produce ? Oh thats right, he never did because plans change. But its in black and white in a couple of newspaper articles.
The understanding so far is that two acetates were auctioned on eBay in late 2016, presumably being both of this set sold separately. The pictures shared here of the discs were taken by the acetate owner. On one of those pictures, they claim that the content of the disc is as follows: Disc 1: Prologue/Twilight/Yours Truly, 2095/Ticket to the Moon/The Way Life's Meant to Be/When Time Stood Still/Julie Don't Live Here/?/Another Heart Breaks. Disc 2: Rain is Falling/From the End of the World/The Lights Go Down/Here is the News/21st Century Man/Bouncer/?/Hold on Tight/Epilogue So how exactly each side is configured is likely just an educated guess. But I have no reason to doubt the owner's credibility that two outtakes exist on these discs. Anyways, I am of the impression Time was not ever actually considered to be a double album as of now. This acetate set is probably just made for testing the songs in an order and deciding which are best for potential b-sides, similar to how Balance of Power has album outtakes used as b-sides as well ("Destination Unknown," "Matter of Fact"). This could maybe explain why there is no label on the disc. It was probably less "finished" than the Secret Messages acetates.
I have been a huge ELO fan since 1975, but shouldn't there be a Hoffman Forum rule that ELO fans can't talk about ELO, on days when THE BEATLES release new product? After all, there never would have been an ELO, if not for THE BEATLES!
The issue with Jeff potentially recording more tracks than were necessary for Time is that there was no precedent for him ever doing such a thing - he either had enough material to compile an album, or he'd continue writing until he reached this stage, which is why there are so many cases of "filler" songs within the ELO catalogue. I can think of just one exception to this rule, and that was a session for two songs intended as B-sides for singles from Face The Music, and those ended up being shelved because they either didn't fit thematically or were always intended for the outside artist whose versions have since turned up. Either way, the various early assemblies of Time saw him playing around with different running orders, and it was future manager Craig Fruin who apparently suggested finally giving fans extra value for money on the subsequent singles by not following Jet's practice (for once) of simply recycling old album tracks. On the other hand, you could say this practice had already been established with certain Xanadu singles featuring non-album tracks, though I'm almost certain that was because Jet, CBS and MCA couldn't agree on releasing that as a double album, not to mention they would have again been lacking the necessary content to justify such an expense on a project that was already generally over schedule and budget. Also, the album that Jeff was due to produce for his old mentor not only exists, but has been preserved and is safely in the possession of a collector. I'd say it's fairly underwhelming, yet significant as a piece of ELO-related history.
sorry, to sum up the evidence for a definitive time double LP produced so far a) Jeff suggests he might record a double LP b) Bev says ELO recorded 17 tracks c) Robs in a facebook group with a collector d) a photo and a track listing from a collector I'm sold
Again, let's see if I can't expand on each of these points. 1. Jeff didn't say he might record a double album, but confirmed - in his own characteristically roundabout way of speaking - that Time had originally been intended to be a double album, only then it wasn't, implying a decision to reduce it that we already know from comparing any potentially alternative version with the running order that eventually made it to retail. Enough material exists for this to have been at least an idea he was contemplating. 2. Bev was indeed present with the other core members of ELO for the recording of 17 tracks, and we have direct quotes along with a confirmed date for when Jeff alone recorded Hold On Tight as the last addition to this project. If further evidence of this should be somehow required, there is a video where none other than engineer Bill Bottrell talks at length about the session. 3. Rob Caiger's involvement in that Facebook group also coincides with him describing its founder as a close friend who it may have been worth paying a visit to upon learning he was in possession of those acetates, which are clearly of interest. The original post where he stated such an intention is apparently no longer available, but others who had participated in this conversation recall it happening. 4. Considering what else the same person also owns, I see no reason for them to fabricate something that is entirely consistent with other independently documented early variations of Time. This source has long since been established as something of a reliable, authoritative figure on a certain aspect of Jeff's career, so it would be utterly illogical to then potentially undermine any trust gained by calling into question the validity of other items acquired. Six years on from when I was initially encouraged to begin properly researching a period in this band's history, I'm incredibly anything but exhausted. Instead, I remain open to clearing up any uncertainties, though it's often difficult to get straight answers when Jeff has reduced himself to a "menu" of subjects he'll cover in interviews. We already know his version of events when it comes to such topics as how he wrote Mr. Blue Sky, helped bring together the Traveling Wilburys or produced The Beatles. There's a lot more to his vast body of work, and yet Time was barely given a mention over the course of its 40th anniversary window unless it was another opportunity to push the Wembley 2017 concert on casual fans. For anything deeper, it's left to a dedicated few who are prepared to often take leaps of faith, collaborating to figure out several blanks using whatever information they can find. All this could be made so much easier if only there was definitive official confirmation, though I'm not holding my breath when a few of those who could help out have clear priorities elsewhere.
In these particular cases, I'd like to think I've done more than enough to provide ample evidence, but what constitutes a level that would be seen as universally satisfactory?
When I said this constant sense of needing to explain myself wasn't exhausting, I was hoping you'd at least read between the lines and not take my word at face value - this inconsistency of approach clearly works both ways.
must be my line of work - but for me, you have provided some statements that have lead to a series of assumptions, then derived information and a proposed theory. For example, Bev statement simply states how many songs were recorded. It does not make the statement we record X songs for a double LP. You are assuming it does. I dont think I need to read between the lines, facts are facts. And why should I need to read between the lines ? and assume that everything stated by this "European" collector is true - yes we all know who it is, and we have all had dealings with him. That part is not the mystery you make it out to be, Final post on the issue.
