My rule of thumb is that in order that a SET is really practical, the woofer needs to be horn loaded. In other words horn loaded high frequency and low frequency. In my experience, a direct radiating woofer needs more power than a SET can comfortably deliver, depending on the music and the size of the room of course. The other alternative is an actively crossed over system with a more powerful woofer amplifier and a SET dedicated to the high frequency horn.
No, they aren't that is what Klipsch claims but it ain't true. With 2V/1m they have a sensitivity of 92-94dB (as a pair plus 3dB).
It depends onthe speakers - Audio Note speakers are quite happy with SET and so are DeVores - both are arguably "quasi-horn" and in the AN E's case, the drivers act like resonators - the opposite of a "long throw" woofer. If a speaker advertises "long throw" it will likely be terrible with any SET amp. My Wharfedale E-70 (Vanguard Edition) are 95dB and are rated 8 ohm and sit mostly 10 ohm - it uses a bullet horn loaded tweeter and a 10 inch woofer and 4 inch midrange. What I would say though is that there just are not many examples like this anymore - when Wharfedale brings back old models they bring low efficiency middling models like the Denton or Linton - they're not bad and perhaps it's just the reality of the world that they have to keep prices low - my Wharfedales were $2200 back in 1990 - hand made - 40lb magbets on the woofers a fancy tweeter from Japan - if they brought this thing back today it might run $10,000 for them to make money on it - and they kind of a have a "hooker-look" for a speaker with fishnet speaker covers and big chrome surrounds. A shame though because they sound better by a lot to the ones they brought back! I think one great thing we can say about good SET amps is that even with the majority of speakers that are not really "SET-Friendly" people STILL like them better for a vast amount of music that they are willing to give up complex music at high volumes - I see SET amps connected to 82-88dB speakers all the time. I think most people listen to the likes of an Eva Cassidy more than they listen to AC/DC and they listen to classical and jazz at lower volumes than at 110dB. And for SET lovers they may do subconscious math in their heads. They may say a $5,000 SET amps give me a 10/10 on Eva Cassidy, Jackson Browne, Frank Sinatra, Simon and Garfunkel (and all singer-songwriter types), Jazz, smaller scale instrumental. While it will do big music at a 7/10 and maybe a 3/10 at high volumes. While SS may do big music at high volumes at a 10/10 but at lower volumes they may say maybe only 7.5/10 and with the singer-songwriters are 3/10. It's on that music with subtelty and nuance where SS often has a sheen - an artificiality - you don't hear it on big music and big bombast - but you do when you listen to an Eva Cassidy - the purity is lost - it sounds like the equivalent of autotune on someone who doesn't need autotune. Just spitballing from my experience. So I like SET amps even on B&W and Harbeth and Quad and Magnepan - on paper all of these should be better with a 200 watt amp.
All the speakers that I tried, Klipsch, Zu, Omega, that claimed that they were SET friendly had terrible tonality and I got tired listening to them after a few weeks. I had better luck pairing my Cary with non-SET friendly but tonally accurate speakers such as Harbeth, Stirling, and Coincident.
5-string, You have identified a major issue—because high efficiency speakers are relatively uncommon, it is harder to find models that suit one’s particular taste. I happen to agree with your dislike of the brands you mentioned (at least the models I have heard). There are not that many commercial high efficiency brands that I have liked, and some are probably no longer made. Specifically, I like Charney Audio Companion speakers, Voxativ Ampeggio, Dolce Vita Audio (the big model), Cube Audio Basis Nenuphar (two-way with self-powered woofer), and the big EdgarHorns. I have heard many custom-built speakers using vintage Western Electric and other vintage-brand drivers that I really like too. I am not that big a fan of vintage Altec or JBL (or modern JBL), although these can be made to sound decent. There are more high-ish efficiency brands that can work well with SET amps that I like, like Audio Note, but that still means some difficulty in hearing alternatives; attending a big show is a must for someone doing a serious search—on-line reviewing traps a lot of people into buying well-hyped brands.
Exactly, tonality is very significant for me. One of the reasons why I love SET amps is because I find them extremely accurate tonally. They present the beauty and the magic of acoustic instruments, guitar, violin, piano, cello, etc. in a very convincing way. Reading reviewers and average listeners talking about various high sensitivity speakers, I often see a lot of them emphasizing the fact of how easy is for a low powered amp to drive these speakers. This might be true but what about the sound? Do they sound like an instrument is supposed to sound or do they sound like something else? In my limited experience with high efficiency speakers, tonal accuracy is something that is lacking. I refer of course to the brands that I mentioned in my previous post. Thanks for the recommendation, I am not familiar with any of the names that you mentioned. I will keep my eyes open and do a little more research on these as I am still looking for a speakers that will match nicely with my Cary 300SEI.
Rule # 1. Don't buy anything based on a review without hearing it first. Many who do this are seriously disappointed. What i like, you may hate or vice versa. There is no substitute for dealer and home demos. I feel for those who don't have a dealer close by that does this . When going the custom route whether it is with speakers or amplifiers you don't have that luxury so the manufacturer's reputation is all you have to go on so that takes a leap of faith. Sometimes that product turns out to exceed your expectations if you're lucky. That said , I am having a Toolshed 101d Line Stage built. The 300b Matt built me is such a great amp I HAVE to have the companion preamp. I know when I open that box I will be equally blown away .
I have been quite surprised how well my 300B SET amps do driving my GR-Research NX-Otica speakers (92db/w). The monoblock amps are a parallel design, so can deliver 15-16w. I am working on a new set of speakers (GR Resesrch Line Forces) which are 98db efficient, and it was with these speakers in mind that I built the amps. I was expecting the amps to sound underpowered (constricted sound stage, reduced dynamics, strident highs, etc) on my current speakers, but these amps have acquitted themselves well. My Pass XA60.8 amps haven't been out of their boxes in many months. I'll admit I don't listen at super loud levels and listen primarily to jazz, folk, classic rock, electronic, etc., but I also listen to the occasional orchestral piece. Also, I have subwoofers to handle the bottom couple octaves, so I'm not relying on the SET amps to deliver tons of low bass energy. Most of the music I listen to is vocals, both male and female, and these amps are absolutely exquisite at this. They also have a beautiful deep, wide soundstage, and a warm tone that makes them easy to listen to for hours on end.
I actually took a step backwards for a while. I had a Zesto Leto, a great sounding preamp. Really good , but once I received my amp the wheels started turning. I had spoken to Matt from Toolshed a few months ago about a Line Stage and a few weeks ago he told me it was a go. So without really having money set aside I sold the Zesto to fund the Toolshed. At first I put a DAC with volume in the loop and it sucked. Then I put my trusty Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 in the system with my fixed volume LAB 12 DAC and it was much better . It's no way near the performance of the Zesto but it will have to do for a few months
Like Jaytor mentioned, I don't really play it loud. The system will play loud , but the magic is when they are too loud to have a conversation over but not too loud.
The 101d is a collaborative effort , Matt worked with Gordon Rankin on this project. It will be using Wavelength's regulation for the filaments in a circuit designed by Matt and Gordon. I have no doubt this unit will be awesome .
The best thing about high efficiency speakers and good SET or pushpull amps is not how loud you can play them, but instead, how low in volume they can be played and still sound full and lively. Can they be played at “realistic” rock concert levels? No, but if my system ever sounded like a live rock concert, I would get rid of it immediately; I expect something better.
Double Impact - Tekton Design Would love to hear those with a SET. Well priced, 98 Db efficiency and relatively flat and gentle sloping impedence load curve dropping down to 4ohm.
BTW my current Unison Simply Italy was measured in reviews with 3,3 watt at 4Ohm. And it’s incredibly agile, vivid, quick and absolutely loud enough hear where I listen. Well, as stated, the Unison Max 2 were developed using the Simply Italy. So in general they are a perfect match. But this doesn’t mean that there cannot be something which I like more
It sounds like the Unison combo is a great match. They were each made to complement each other .Enjoy
Having owned various Klipsch and Altec speakers over the past half century, I tend to think of them as everyday normal speakers. Which, for me, they were. I never really thought of them as a suplative speaker as far as efficiency goes. I have owned them for the dynamic lifelike sound qualities, which is the #1 thing for me. That and I can play them as loudly as I desire, without distortion. I always drove them with powerful amplifiers, none the less. I only began with the lower powered tube thing a few years back, as my earlier tube amps were Rogue monoblock's. I didn't really get into the lower powered amps for their sound signatures, I did so to save money on tubes. As I did realize, that having 100 dB. sensitive Altec A7’s did mean that I truly didn't need that much power. I brought in these custom La Scala's in early 2014. They were done by the same guy who did the restoration and upgrade on my A7's. These are custom only in terms of the exterior cabinets, they are all original commercial La Scala's underneath. This is when I first bought them in. I set them up, replacing my other front speakers (the A7's are still there, on the side where they always sit). You can see the Peachtree Nova peaking out at the end of the sofa. I use the Peachtree as the central point of control for my system. It functions as my system source selector, system DAC and system preamp. One evening I am sitting on the tan sofa and I am hearing some noises outside of my back door. The door is beside the right La Scala. It leads to the patio / pool deck. As this is a motel, hearing some sounds from outside is not unusual. Also, the stairway to the second floor is right outside the door. However, over a period of time, I still was hearing these sounds. I thought this was strange, because people transit through that area, yet these sounds, though intermittent, was still coming from the same place. So finally, I get up and open the door. There is no one outside and it is completely quiet? I sat back down, and the transient sounds continued. Then, I figured out what was happening... I had been listening to Pandora. I had been streaming Jazz that was recorded live at night clubs. I had taken a phone call and turned down the volume of the Peachtree. Even though the volume knob was completely at zero, some of the transient sounds from the club, like glasses clanking and silverware contacting plates, was still coming through, even though I could not hear the actual music playing. This has never happened with the Altec’s. Those La Scala's have super high sensitivity. Even playing normal music, it is very apparent that they are noticeably more sensitive than the A7's, which is a lot to say! I have powered the A7's to a decent room filling volume with a 3.9-Watt Decware Mini-Tori. Sensitivity usually doesn't impress me, but the sensitivity of the La Scala's does. They also have a special clarity about them at low volume levels that is remarkable.
I have a pair of Zu Omen Definitions. I have run them with a 250-Watt SS amp. Later, I relegated them to a 36-Watt KT88 PrimaLuna. I never hooked them up to the 3.9-Watt Decware amp. Despite Zu's sensitivity claims, there is no way that this low powered amp could properly drive the Zu's.
That is the conclusion I came to. At one point, I had a dozen tube amps. I started with KT88 Rogue monoblock's. Over time I worked my way down to 3.9-Watts! Not that the other more powerful amps, didn't sound good, they did and I could live with any of them forever with my Altec's. I found myself turning down the volume more and more, yet the music was full as I used to have to listen at 90-dB levels. Yet, now I am at 60-dB. Sometimes, I will be in the mood to rock out, which the Altec's do really well and I really enjoy. But, I sit there listening to other music with the low powered single ended amp and I can't seem to break away to put on the loud stuff. It's hard for the average person to understand this. But, the average person has never been exposed to quality recordings played on good upstream components, a super nice low power single ended amp and horn speakers. They would have no point of reference to understand this. I didn't understand it before it became a reality for me either!
As with so much in life, there's really "no replacement for displacement". Large vintage bass horn systems will get you there. Front-loaded please. They'll also likely get you a divorce too, unless your past that kind of thing. ヾ( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)ノ♪
Well stated. As stated somewhere on this (or the other thread). My Unison Simply Italy was measured with 3,3 watts in some reviews. However, they are agile, quick, powerful, sensitive with my Max 2 speakers. You don’t have to listen very loud to feel all of it. Everything’s there from the very beginning.
