3D Soundstage and How To Get It?

FWIW: It may be easy to write about your equipment inside of a gigantic post. However it is not so easy for the reader to easily dissect this content when it is embedded that way...

SHF features a profile page for every user. Equipment is listed there in an easy to read and dissect manner. And it is the first thing that most of us check when asked for system-related advice. So I would encourage you to fill your profile page.

BTW: The advice to pull your speakers away from the wall a bit and to move your seat forward is excellent advice which will cost you nothing to try.

 

I believe I may have this actually. I think I have three of these CDs and never heard any of it, never even occurred to me to be honest - I assumed these would be filled with test tones and some sod saying "left channel...". I'll dust them off and rip them onto my NAS.

Cheers,
Robert

 

It does have a lot of test tones and other junk, but that one track (track 10) is very impressive. My system is rather low end, all digital and solid state, but reproduces this track easily.

 

My response was a little testy. Sorry. Also sorry if the original post was long. However I think it's always best to provide as much relevant information as possible to avoid having people waste time replying with questions or suggestions that are inappropriate because information was missing. And I try to keep all the equipment within a sentence or two. So if someone doesn't see the gear it's because they didn't read the post, not because the gear was sprinkled all over the place!

I often try to avoid listing gear unless it's directly relevant, hence my avoidance of the profile page. People tend to blame all manner of things on "that" piece of gear. Really? You use those interconnects and expect to distinguish between a cymbal and a kick drum? Nice.

I'll definitely try pulling the speakers out further from the wall and playing again with distances and angles.

Cheers,
Robert

 

An important point to note is that not all recordings have a 3D soundstage to start with – to be sure of whether or not your speakers are correctly reproducing the effect, you need to be certain you're listening to something that contains it. As a case in point, I streamed to two rock albums in hi-res on Qobuz a few days ago.

Pat Benatar's Crimes Of Passion, despite being expensively recorded and produced by the peerless Keith Olsen, has no 3D soundstaging and presents a wide, flat, conventional stereo image.

The Pretenders' debut album, despite being a less expensive production, does have 3D soundstaging – Chrissie Hynde's vocals are significantly in front of the instruments (and the speakers) throughout the album, just as though she were standing in front of them of stage.

 

This will do what you want! I used a similar device when I lived in my co-op and had to deal with lousy speaker placement options. It made the center image return and created a huge 3-D soundstage that at times could be overwhelming but that unit like the Jolida has a a volume pad to adjust the intensity.

Black Ice by Jolida - Foz SS-X Sound Stage Expander

 

I just found that out A/B'ing your YouTube posting of Gentle Giant's "Boys In The Band" to Steven Wilson remix which he rolled off all the sibilant directional frequencies that reach the ears first in creating a convincing 3D effect. Not many realize how much reverb or sound of the room is in the 8kHz frequency regions.

Never thought I'ld say this about a Steven Wilson remix but he just ruined the 3D effect on the Octopus album. I even A/B'ed the original mix to Wilson's on Qobuz to confirm.

Thanks for posting the Gentle Giant link. It's the first I've heard of this band and that album. Even the YouTube original mix sound delicious on my Sony headphones.

 

Speaker placement and toe in/out play a huge roll in sound stage in relation to seating position. It sounds like you are close so minor adjustments are very time consuming but when you hit the spot it will put the smile on your face. Room treatment is a must, just use household items to drape towels over, pillows, cushions and place them in the reflective points from the speaker to your seating position. I can slide a rear sound panel 1/2" in or out and loose the whole enchilada. I can tip the toe in 1/8" in or out and it falls apart. It's a passion to spent the time to "Get it spot on" but once you do it's so enjoyable.

I had the wife come into the music room last night to hear the song I posted below. She was so impressed the first thing she said was "what did you buy and how much did it cost". Nut'n honey, just been dialing it in.

I follow the same logic as you, inexpensive but good (to my ears) gear can be arranged and implemented properly and you can make it work right. It took almost 400 hours to bring mine together. Don't get me wrong I've had great sounding stop points during this setup but it never ends, lol.

Nice 3D sound stage - Bahamas, Earthtones _Everything to Everyone

 

There used to be hardware stereo 3D that I only saw on Panasonic RX series boomboxes during the '80's that came with an "Ambience" switch which you can hear its effect at the 2:00 minute mark in the linked video below while listening on headphones.

What it doesn't show in the video that I experienced in the mid '80's is when I had the two speakers in equidistant triangular distance to my ears turning the Ambience switch on/off, the sound stage opened up and pushed instruments to the back and left and right to where I could point to their position outside of the boombox. Never heard anything like it since. I was playing Earth, Wind & Fire cassette.

Jump to 2 minute mark to hear the Ambience effect...

 

My two cents is to simply start playing around with speaker position. I think a very basic thing that has a pretty big effect is simply making sure your speakers are spaced far enough apart and angled so that your listening position is right in the sweet spot. Super basic, super easy to tweak. I found that in my room (wall on one side, open on the other), making a minute adjustment to offset the L/R balance made a pretty immediate difference. Short of adjusting your position or that of your speakers, I am not sure there is much you can do without adding in treatments.

 

I keep mentioning this album as a) a FANTASTIC album from a superb musician and b) a FANTASTIC album to test audio gear because it is just so perfectly mixed/mastered/recorded. This album on vinyl is literally one of the best sounding albums I have ever heard - it really helps that the music is amazing too!

 

I do NOT want to get into a debate here, but I am genuinely curious if there is an objective basis to claim that tube amps vs. SS could differ in regards to soundstage.

 

I will agree that you made a good attempt at listing your equipment inside of your OP. And I will admit that it is my fault for not reading your post word-for-word. Unfortunately the format you chose is extremely difficult for people like myself to read. I scan everything I read these days. I literally do not have enough time in the day to read everything that I need/want read to word for word, or I'd never get anything accomplished. Unfortunately this means that my eyes will skip over many details. And the larger that the paragraphs are, the more details that I will likely miss. I am not blaming you for doing anything wrong here, I'm just explaining my position.

The equipment profiles are a somewhat standardized way of listing your equipment, and these are the first thing which many of us will read when asked to provide input about a system. These are quick and easy to read since your equipment is listed clearly, and it is not embedded inside of a huge block of text.

 

Objectively speaking, everything is supposed to sound the identical which has flat Frequency response, sufficiently low noise, and sufficiently low distortion. Most good SS and Tube gear all fit this description. So according to the so-called objectivists, all differences in sound between equipment are the result of an overly active imagination... If that is you, then stop reading here.

However, subjectively speaking, most tubes gear does not sound identical to SS gear despite fact that both (generally) have sufficiently good measurements. And one of these differences which is often cited is this difference in the subjectively perceived depth of the image which good Tube gear, by and large, tends to excel at.

 

My experience, perhaps dated for the OP's purposes: I bought my first pair of Quad ESLs in 1973-74. When I first got them, I only had a Dyna ST 70 to hand as a tube amp, and it took about a year to get an Audio Research amp and preamp- big difference in the dimensionality of presentation, even though the Quads were always considered legendary for their 'see through' qualities. By 1990, I was using a later version of the Quad, a '63, that had been modded by Crosby, and had gone through a succession of ARC amps, ending with the Classic 60, which imaged like crazy, but sounded a little bleached compared to the earlier, more traditional sounding ARC amps. Ditto on preamp- I had transitioned from my original SP 3-a-1 to an ARC SP 10 mkii, another legendary product from ARC that delivered oodles of dimensionality. Positioning of the loudspeakers was critical (although the later 63 was far more forgiving in some ways than the original Quad loudspeaker, which had a sweet spot that was extremely narrow). Much varied by recording- some were flat, lacking in dimension, others really came alive.
I now use the original Quads in a small second system with period electronics and they sound wonderful. The main system, using horns and tubes everywhere, can throw a very deep soundstage if the information is there on the recording. This varies to some degree by the tubes that I'm using- for example, I was having some issues with my line stage tubes -6h30- and grabbed a modern production tube just to make sure it wasn't something else. The modern tube just didn't have the "air" or amount of resolution of the old DR Reflektor which was originally supplied when I had the line stage built. I did manage to find a quad of NOS DRs and the magic was back.
Ditto on changes in phono stage- I had a very highly regarded phono stage in this system for a few years and it sounded good, but even with tube rolling, it couldn't get out of its own way. I changed to a different phono stage- not something dramatically more expensive- more of a lateral move, but that made a huge difference in the spatial presentation of instruments-- not only the outer perimeter, height and depth, but also the "interior" of the presentation- you could hear each instrument more distinctly within its own space if the recording had the information. (For the most part, none of these are 'audiophile spectacular' type records, and often just 'regular' production pressings made at the time, but big differences between, say, a UK and US pressing of a given album).
It took me a while to dial that system in-- over the course of a couple years. Very small differences in position of the speakers relative to the listening position.
Jim Smith's book is very good on the basics if you haven't read it.
The idea of the 3d sound stage is not something that is fiction, although the creation (or better, the recreation) of it is obviously an illusion.
I've gotten to the point where I take those attributes as a given-- one of many attributes I listen for in a system, in addition to tonality, natural voicing of the midrange (which is hugely important to me), as well as the ability of the system to resolve information at fairly low SPLs, something that a horn based system can do very well if you can tackle the noise floor issues associated with an extremely efficient speaker system.
When I moved a few years ago from NY to Texas, I was able to get the system dialed in much faster even though the room was different. I also think everything else in the system matters, including the phono cartridge. ( I was recently experimenting with a variety of different phono cartridges and they all changed the character of the system).
But, as others have suggested, much has to do with the set up in the room and that's where I'd start before throwing money at gear to in an attempt to upgrade your way into better sound.
And some records just sound lifeless- different pressings matter.

 

Great album. That quarter or coin spin is the thing. You can hear it wander all around the room. Wonder if it was a surface mic? Someone here no doubt knows.

 

Is it possible to position the speakers on the room diagonal? Getting more space behind them could help. Also what music have you tried? I've generally found classical music does the best job at showing a deep soundstage. I agree that vinyl gives you more soundstage but you should still be able to get credible depth with digital.

 

The right mix of second order distortion can get the soundstage to sound deeper. A deeper soundstage gives the imaging room and space to play, and you can get a more 3D presentation.

Here's an objective oriented article that explores some strategic second order distortion: Katz's Corner Episode 25: Adventures in Distortion
One effect noted was a deeper soundstage with the tube distortion simulator.

 

I just realized you didn't list your source I was assuming it was digital can identify it?

 

Fascinating. Thanks!

 

Who? Margo Timmins?

 

Darn! I can't even blame that on a spell checker... Lol. Thanks for being observant...

Cheers,
Robert

 

True, I just said it was digital. It's a MiniDSP SHD running Volumio, pulling my ripped CDs from NAS. Neither the Dirac option nor any of the PEQ, Hi/Low Pass etc are in use and digital volume is max since it feeds my integrated.

Cheers,
Robert

 

If I ever get an expanded soundstage happening (PrimaLuna, so tubes) I can always swap a a couple cables and bring my Simaudio Moon W6 monoblocks online for comparison. They're just bottom rack dust collectors at the moment.

You may have missed where I mentioned that shifting to non-symetrical away from the wall the gear is on isn't going to work, due to the TV being permanently mounted central to the wall.

Although I don't mind some classical, I lose patience with it quickly. I get that some would be ideal material for playing with sound stage but I'll have to stick with small group jazz.

Cheers,
Robert

 

Also good stand mount speakers will give you a more of the three dimensional than equivalent floor standers