3D Soundstage and How To Get It?

Interesting. Wonder why that would be? I could drag my old Nautilus 805s in, on their 100 lb stands filled with lead shot... Nah, the F52s are making me happy and the N805s are in use elsewhere.

Cheers,
Robert

 

...something other than salmon

 

How about this one for sounds that go way beyond the boundaries of your speakers?
Can your speakers disappear and have sounds field expand far beyond your speakers?

 

we will get you there, your room and equipment are very capable. ill reply later...

 

After years of reading about image depth, I finally found it with this setup:


The room is a small square and sound was terrible until I did the diagonal thing. It truly amazed me when it snapped in. Every audio person who sat in the sweet spot noted the depth. You recognized the speakers I'm sure.

Here's a better pic that looks more realistically sized:

 

I first discovered this wide 3d soundstage and ease of picking out and following each intrument when I started using vintage (60's) tube gear and vintage(70's) larger highly efficient (97db+ sensitivty) loudspeakers. About 22 years ago. Not saying this is the ONLY way to go, but it sure did it for me. As in within a few LP sides I was convinced. It has gotten even better since I have tweaked and positiond ad nauseum as you stated.
Good luck!

 

My 2 channel system is setup in a 13' x 26' room adjacent to the foyer and stairs. The right speaker is next to the foyer and the left speaker is next to a built-in book shelf. This is not an ideal listening room and with all the furniture and art hanging on the walls the space is asymmetrical. Since the space is asymmetrical my speakers have to be asymmetrical for the sound from each speaker to hit my seating position at the same time. My left speaker has no toe-in and is about 4" farther back than my right speaker which has about 15 degrees toe-in. I used the CD Rob Wasserman ‎– Duets, the song Ballad Of The Runaway Horse, to center the vocal. Then I cranked up Styx Paradise Theatre CD and was surrounded by the music.

 

It may depend on how you define "equivalent" and on particular setups but I do not believe this to be generally true.

 

I was able to spend a bit of time last evening trying different speaker placements and listening positions. Just an update though as I was incorrect in the locations of the speakers as stated in the OP, remembering numbers from previous adjustments. The speakers were actually 6'7" apart on center, leaving 50" between each speaker and it's adjacent wall. And my listening position has my head at 10' from a line between the speakers. The speakers were towed in such that their center lines cross just behind my head.

I started by pulling the speakers to 40" from the front wall and moving my position to form an equilateral triangle with the speakers. This resulted in a dark sound as though I had hung a blanket over the speakers. The image was certainly wider but only due to me being closer, therefore of course the speakers are effectively further left and right of my head. The image did not, however seem to be wider than the speakers and there was no apparent "depth" to the sound stage. Plain old stereo image was there in spades though, almost distractingly so. I then spent time with various toe-in positions, from none to pointing directly at me. None of that made any substantial difference - dark sound, great stereo image, wider due to physical location and not what I would call a soundstage.

Basically crap and uncomfortably close to the gear. I could live with the speakers being 40" or even 48-50" from the back wall but there is no way I can sit that close (equilateral position). I need to be a minimum of 8 feet back otherwise I feel crowded and too close, so that apparently means 8 feet between the speakers - which isn't going to work if they are 4 feet from the back wall due to one now being in front of a side door. Plus, this is a room we have to live with, not a bachelors audio room.

I went back to the way I had it before and breathed a sigh of comfort - great sound with zero depth. Oh well. I'm fairly certain I just have less imagination than some. If there had been even the slightest evidence that "sound stage" had improved, or rather, occurred - I would be less skeptical. I think I'll just go back to enjoying.

Cheers and thanks for all the input, I appreciate it folks.

Robert

 

Sumiko method is Not about equivalent distances. Based on your response, it appears you did not try it. It is worth a try for quite a few of us here. Do spend some time read up on it if possible.

 

I recommend, as others here have, experimenting with speaker placement & toe in. It doesn't take long & it's a great way to spend a rainy afternoon. There are lots of hints available online & YouTube. Once you get it it right it should be very noticeable. Classics such as Dark Side & Wish You Were Here are great for testing.

 

I have to have a certain distance between mine or it's a no go.

 

It’s listed in his post along with some detail about the room.

 

Are you giving up allready? You don't put up much of a fight do you ?!
As was told here before, try the Sumiko setup (I 've posted a link on first page), it is not about equilateral distances, it is about making the speakers work with YOUR room ! You still have the rest of you life to play with your speaker setup so don't quit after one try.

 

A few things I have noticed with various speakers and rooms that consistently hold true in my experience with getting 3D sound (or sound that has great image width, depth and layering):

Pull the speakers far out from the front wall. You'll sacrifice bass extension but the speakers will sound more open and you'll get less boomyness from the front wall. Nearly every speaker will benefit from this unless the speakers were designed to be used up against the wall or corners.

No equipment rack or TV in the center. It doesn't matter if you cover them with any type of material, I've never heard a rack/TV in the center sound as good as one without them. After much trial and error here I don't even bother with quality speakers in our living rooms that have TVs.

Room treatments- the bass is the one constant that needs to be flat, any peaks/dips in the bass will mess up a holographic image that we all want. Now on the topic of diffusion vs absorption for the rest of the frequencies I can't make any generalizations here as this seems to vary from room to room and speaker to speaker.

Adjust the toe in. No hard rule here, but keep doing it in small increments, say every 5 degrees. Mark it on the floor with masking tape. Note down where it sounds best and go back to that position.

Try different seating positions/ear height from the midrange/tweeter. The chair will also matter as something like a pillowy/soft sofa will sound different from say an office chair that has a much narrower head support.

A large room plays a huge difference in getting that realism, but I realize not everyone can have one of these.

 

Did you leave your subwoofer settings as they were before, when you changed the position of the main speakers?
I'm not sure you have to listen near field. You can adjust the speaker position relative to the walls without making your room unuseable for other purposes. I would try to do this without the sub first, just to get the midrange and high frequencies to work for you. I sit a fair distance from my main speakers in a large room and if I read your OP correctly, you have a decent sized room.
I have found that even small changes in things- for example, a platter weight, changed the tonal balance of my system, requiring other changes. So, working with your system in your room (we aren't there and can't really see and hear what you are doing and hearing), I wouldn't worry so much about a precise formula, but would focus instead on what you are hearing when you make a change. You'll pretty quickly determine what effect speaker in room position is doing to the sound. (And shut off that sub if it is on, for now, until you've dialed in the main speakers). I'd also repeat my suggestion that you buy Jim Smith's book- it will help unlock the mystery of this and give you the tools to adjust and evaluate what you are hearing without a lot of unnecessary work. (Jim does set ups and is really good at this).

 

The only way you're going to get a 3D effect in a stereo sound stage is to have some sort of channel delay effect happening. That's how humans with two ears detect distance vs near field. Crutchfield stereo installation instructions offer tweeter satellite speaker time delay circuitry kits to delay the time the tweeters reach the ears over midrange and bass as a way to to tune the system in car audio. Some do this by bouncing off the back windshield which is my setup, but I don't get 3D stereo. I just don't rip my eardrums from the Polk tweeters brightness.

You can create a similar 3D effect in Audacity by just taking a stereo or two channel mono waveform, split the channel and shift one of them by .005 milliseconds which creates instant wide stereo and opened up sound stage effect. That's doing it on the out put signal, but music can be recorded to create this effect with mic placement which has been already discussed and more effectively demonstrated.

FORGET SPEAKER PLACEMENT DOING THIS! IT'S A WASTE OF TIME! As you've already discovered.

 

I realize I only spent and evening and didn't follow a rigorous "method". My intent was not to nail it in an evening, but to experiment to see if ANY suggested change indicated a positive change. Understand I didn't just start adjusting speaker positions at ground zero yesterday - I've been playing around for several months in this room and years in other locations without the merest hint of a sound stage with layers and depth, regardless the gear and the room. I may well try the "Sumiko" or "Master Set" method, but it's pretty sketchy in my estimation from the read - too much depends on "trust your ear" - God, I laugh whenever someone says that. If you don't get what you pray for it must be because you don't have enough faith. lol...

So I'm going to use hvbias' reply here to illustrate why I likely won't spend much more time on this.

Agreed, but 48" is max in this situation and it hasn't provided any value yet.

Not happening, simply won't work here. If this is a deal breaker, then the deal is broken.

Bass was already handled quite well, smooth, deep and without significant aberration. I don't profess perfection, but I was very surprised how painless this was. Changing listening position, all bets are off - back to square one.

Been there, done that. Roughly zero difference. A slight toe-in seemed about right but it was a crap shoot.

Not that there is any chance the seating will be changing, but the listening chairs are low-back leather recliners that are not reclined when listening. When music listening, one is pushed well back and left and the primary chair is dead center with 6' of open space all around.

Note I'm not "picking" on hvbias here! His questions were just nicely layed out and logical for me to respond to.


I may try the methods on a weekend. I'm on of the weird ones who would rather just enjoy than spend hours tinkering. Same with equipment shopping - put a bullet in my head, rather than "try" dozens of speakers. LOL.

Cheers,
Robert

 

Just for fun, there are some speaker makers that have built reputations for making the most of this phenomena. Magnepan, Thiel (older models), Vandersteen, Quad ESL (mentioned previously), Tannoy or any concentric driver. You might take some time to go out and listen to what you can and see if you find the phenomena more easily accessible in a more controlled room.

I originally had my Vandersteens in a larger room where I could literally do the 1/3s. It was amazing, and I never heard them sound as good as they did in that room, but I well learned what they could do and knew what I was after, and when I had enough to make me happy.

 

While you're at it you can explain how you defy the laws of physics when it comes to channel delay effect by just rearranging two stereo speakers in a room.

 

I just got
Furman Elite-15 PF i 13-Outlet Linear Filtering AC Power Source https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WV5K4S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_X4WWDbWR2ZR9R

The difference it made listening to music is significant. I have listened to a video multiple times before. With it in the chain, the music improved significantly in terms of stage width, depths, dynamics, impacts, details, etc.

I urge you to consider testing one if you don't already have one.

May be your issue is the noises in your electrical circuits.

This is the video I am watching now. Your speakers should disappear. Sound stage should be much bigger than the edge of your speakers.

 

Want 3D, easy, play multi-channel SACDs.

 

Never ever heard any multi-channel system that could do what a proper two channel could. I think there's more to this phenom than some time delay. IMO, phase coherency and even-order distortion are the juice.

 

Err... are you talking to me? Channel delay? No idea what I said that could be misinterpreted as this... Or have we entered the random association phase of the discussion?

Cheers,
Robert

 

I'm only going to address the toe in aspect here, if you can't hear significant differences between the angle of toe in and imaging I am not sure what to say There is no voodoo here, it significantly impacts the direct vs reflected sound that we are going to hear which is directly responsible for imaging. Things like late vs early reflections are well documented in Floyd Toole's book and AES papers.

Try going to a high extreme and point the speakers so the axis crosses way in front of you, so that the speakers look comically oddly placed. Now try them facing directly forward. I would have a very hard time believing anyone could not hear a difference in 3D image with something that extreme. I am just using that as an example because now you'll know what to listen for. I can very easily hear differences in 5 degrees with my Quads and Harbeths. One more extreme analogy to illustrate direct vs reflected sound- would your 3D image be the same if one speaker was pulled out 5 feet into the room and another was 10 feet into the room?

I don't really listen to much rock music anymore, nearly all my listening is classical and jazz which might be why I pay so much more attention to these things.

Do you have measurements of the in room response for bass, like REW frequency and waterfall?