Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by tinnox, Feb 8, 2018.
The 5.1 is very nice.
Pepper in 5.1 was a disappointment.
Yes this is very interesting. One of the first things that caught my eye in the book.
I think, as you do, that Lennon was imagining the future album art. Or perhaps it could have been an idea for the poster. Maybe we can imagine a doll's house with each window illustrating one of these songs. The fact that the list was typed makes it look like the idea had been seriously considered. And it looks like Revolutions 1 or 9 weren't going to be used as an album track at this time.
That "windows"-cover (or inner fold) sounds like a likely idea actually! BTW Revolution 9 IS on the list.
Yes, it could also have been an idea for the inner fold.
And yes you're right Revolution 9 is on the list. But no Dear Prudence or Glass Onion for example. It's a bit strange.
Lennon was a bit strange!
Probably that was just an omission as this was a preliminary list or brainstorming list of some kind. Maybe he hand wrote the ideas fairly quickly and handed it to someone in the Apple Office type up.
It's one of the more fascinating pieces of the WA book for sure.
I'm looking forward to an Abbey Road book, and any and all notes or handwritten items/lyrics that are included. Maybe some notes about alternate album titles, because Paul always says they went through a few different ideas like "Everest" and "Billy's Left Boot" and none of them stuck.
Or maybe it was considered for another film or some music videos they had in mind...
The descriptions next to the song titles might look like promo film scenes.
That thought came up too - but I think the ideas are a bit slim for a promo and rather suggest an image of sorts.
Ah yes, maybe it could also be early ideas for the album's collage poster.
Still my fav fab album, but still have little desire to listen to the 2018 version. 2009 CD is still my go-to
IS this actually John`s handwritting?
Anyway, if we assume that this paper is all there is and that there never was a page two I have a theory that doesn`t fully work but might be worth consideraton:
This list was an early collection of current songs typed (and also possibly adjorned with notes) between August 22 (recording date of Back in the USSR) and August 28 (recording date for Dear Prudence).
It contains songs that are either:
- already recorded or
- considered for recording at this stage and that are known to have been composed already (via India/Kinfauns)
It does NOT include:
- songs composed and/or recorded later
(however amongst those are ALSO some India/Kinfauns songs that might simply not been thought of at this moment or already excluded on purpose)
- songs set aside for singles or other artists
Let`s go through the songs as they appear on the paper and see where this theory works (and where it doesn`t):
I`m so tired (not recorded yet but considered - yes we start with a bit of an exception to the rule)
Don`t pass me by
Everybody`s got something to hide ...
(note: except *Yer Blues this is the exact chronological recording order for songs #3-#7 of the WA sessons)
Wild Honey Pie (more on that later)
*Mother Nature`s Son
Back in the USSR
(note: exept *Mother Nature`s Son again a batch like above; songs #17-#19)
While My Guitar Gently Weeps
(note: another batch, songs #10-#14. Hey Jude would have been #12 but is excluded due to have been already picked for the single)
Cry Baby Cry
(songs #8-#9 in reversed order)
What`s the new mary jane
(recorded far apart - songs #2 and #16 - but a batch in so far as they are somehow unloved John-freak-out items, one making it despite resistance, the other not. Consider these being added to end of the list as far as songs already recorded go)
*Child of Nature
Happiness is a warm gun
The continuing story of Bungalow Bill
(none of these recorded yet but known via India/Kinfauns and considered. All will make it except *Child of Nature)
Maxwell`s Silver Hammer
(again known via India/Kinfauns, still considered for recording at this point but ultimatly delayed until AR).
So far for part one. As I said: all these have been recorded before August 28.
No let`s do the reverse check - first the songs that were recorded within above time-frame but did NOT make it into that list:
(this is a puzzler. Was there some thinking along the line of "we already have the fast one on the single - no need for the slow one on the album"? Would John have been happy with that?)
(that`s easy: the single, released August 26/30, just around the time this list might have been drawn up, not considered for the album)
Now the songs NOT on the list BUT that eventually WERE recorded for the WA but only starting August 28:
Honey Pie (! - we still need to talk about that one)
(this is were my theory does not quite work. All these have been composed in/around India and except *I Will auditioned at Kinfauns. They are all worthy songs (except Piggies maybe) that will make it on the album.
Were they simply not thought of at the moment?)
Then there are these that we also know via Kinfauns but that neither made the list nor did get recorded for the WA:
*Sour Milk Sea
Mean Mr. Mustard
(One can assume that these were excluded on purpose, not being considered strong or finished enough and in the case of *Sour Milk Sea given to another artist within our specualated time-frame.)
Last and almost least these songs were ALSO not on the list as well as recorded AFTER our time-frame:
Martha My Dear
Long Long Long
(this again is simple: they very likely have not been composed or aired to the respective Beatles pals yet)
Now finally the (Wild) Honey Pie problem - the one OTHER hole in my theory even though I might be able to patch it up in a way:
On the list it reads "Wild Honey Pie". A song composed on the day of it`s recording, August 20. Within timeframe. Fine?
No! Not only has the "Wild" been crossed out by the same pen that did the remarks but it also says - "(Hollywood handout)".
The song with THAT title - "Honey Pie" - is not only Hollywood-esque but also does mention Hollywood. And unfortunatly it has not been properly recorded until Oktober 1! A absolute misfit for my theory.
So let me apply some fantasy and maybe I can rectify this:
Wild Honey Pie has been recorded and was duly typed down on the that list. When reading the title our blue-penned-Beatle first thought "oh that crazy crap, no idea what to do with it or if we even gonna use it" and put a "-" next to it. Then he immidiatly thought of that OTHER Honey Pie, as aired at Kinfauns, the Hollywood one! Recalling the Hollywood theme/feel/line and possibly even already imagining it to be recorded in such a way he modifies the song title and then adds "(Hollywood handout)" after his initial "-".
Or MAYBE the blue notes were even done quite a while AFTER the list was typed - say after Oktober 1!
So what do you think about my dating attempt for this little sheet of paper?
My guess about 'Wild Honey Pie' on the song titles paper:
The "hollywood" song was originally called 'Wild Honey Pie' but Paul dropped the word 'Wild' after he recorded that other weird (wild) and improvised one and put it on there instead.
What confuses me is the description on the following tracks:
Everybody's Got Something To Hide - Black space
Revolution 9 - White space
Sexy Sadie - Black vinyl special
What is that supposed to mean?
maybe vinyl like some domina gear? leatherette?
2 million views?? 2 MILLION VIEWS????
Yes, it's definitely John's handwriting. No other Beatle writes like that.
Your time period seems probable but it doesn't explain why certain songs like Dear Prudence and Glass Onion are not on there. And if someone took the time to type a list then it doesn't explain why some songs could just have been 'forgotten' or 'excluded on purpose'.
The only intentionally excluded songs would be Hey Jude and Revolution 1 which wouldn't have been considered since there was already the single version. A song already released as a single would not normally be considered for a UK album at this time even in a different version.
But why on earth is Maxwell on the list? A song not rehearsed at Esher, not recorded and never seriously envisaged for the white album?
Someone mentioned maybe the notes were ideas for film or video, but the comments are static images. If not for the doll's house then for a mosaic giving visual clues to the album's titles. And I agree that 'black vinyl special' could be referring to Sadie's sexy clothes!
Thanks for confirming it`s John!
Yeah, some of those songs not present make little sense (Dear Prudence through to Piggies), as I had to recognize myself.
What kind of rather supported me in my thinking although was the position of Rev. 9 and Jane - I can see a virtual line here between "done" and "to do?".
Maxwell was said to be present in Paul`s India notebook - I don`t have the Deluxe Edition but the info must have been drawn from something pictured in there. Anybody?
I was amazed to see it in this list! All we knew previosly was that Maxwell was just "written" (???) a bit too late to get on the WA via Mal in Beatles Monthly.
But then we didn`t know about LIB either.
BTW I don`t think a Beatle typed that list - too tidy. Probably some Apple employee working from either documents or being told by a Beatle what to type. If you look closely he or she even used typo-ex (sp?) twice when forgetting to do a double line break ("While"/"Helter").
Some documents (mainly hand-written lyrics) are presented in the Deluxe Edition, but with no explanation. This list is one of them.
Having looked closely at Paul's hand-written lyrics for Back in the USSR, I've changed my mind. I now think this could be Paul's handwriting. Lennon's is often even worse!
It would make sense that these were Paul's notes in that Paul was the main Beatle involved in ideas concerning the cover.
I agree that he probably asked an employee to type out the list. But that doesn't explain the sometimes strange choice of songs.
As for Maxwell`s indian origins (or not):
"Maxwell's Silver Hammer" song by The Beatles. The in-depth story behind the songs of The Beatles. Recording History. Songwriting History. Song Structure and Style.
Paul included the first verse of this song in a notebook he had taken to India during their trip there to study Transendental Meditation with the Maharishi. On an opening page of the notebook he wrote, "Spring Songs, Rishikesh 1968," which would indicate that he began writing the song during his stay in India, this being between March and May of that year.
Maxwell's Silver Hammer - Wikipedia
While in Rishikesh, India, on retreat, Paul began to write the first verse of the song. (Source: Howlett, Kevin (2018). The Beatles (White Album) Super Deluxe Edition). Keeping a notebook by his side during his stay in India, "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" was one of many compositions started by Paul there (I believe this is the actual quote)
50th Anniversary all things Beatles White Album
Jump to above message to see the actual page in the book.
It has been discussed here wether this really proves that it was indeed composed in India or wether it could have been added to the book later back in the UK. On the next page one can make out the title and lyrics for "Honey Pie" (unfinished as far as I can tell. Note that the Esher demo also does not have the final lyrics yet).
Now we do NOT know for sure wether "Honey Pie" was an indian composition either but it was demoed for Esher in late May 1968. So the best guess would be that Maxwell already existed at least then, judging by the order of songs in the notebook.
Abbey Road - Wikipedia
He wrote the song after the group's trip to India in 1968 and wanted to record it for the White Album, but it was rejected by the others as "too complicated" (Gould, Jonathan (4 November 2008). Can't Buy Me Love The Beatles, Britain and America. Random House Digital. ISBN 978-0-307-35338-2.d)
Huh? I would love to know where that quote originally came from! Anyway this dates the composition after India but still before/during the WA Sessions.
50th Anniversary all things Beatles White Album
Al Brodax wrote in his book "Up Periscope" that he originally imagined the badies in the Yellow Submarine movie as Eggmen with silver hammers, but as he wrote that would only work if Maxwell was recorded and released before the movie. As things did not move into that direction, the eggmen had to be dropped.
This sounds crazy - how would Brodax even know about the song? But maybe a hint nonetheless. YS was in production (and finished) during the WA sessions even though I didn`t check the exact timeline.
The Beatles Monthly Book No 64 Nov. 1968
"A couple of other last-minute songs just couldn`t be recorded in time - "Polythene Pan" [sic] and "Maxwell`s Silver Hammer" Mal Evans
The well-known Mal-quote and the first time the public learns of this song.
I don`t think so because of this quote:
"We were in an experimental mode, and so I said, 'Can I just make something up?' I started off with the guitar and did a multitracking experiment in the control room or maybe in the little room next door. It was very home-made; it wasn't a big production at all. I just made up this short piece and I multitracked a harmony to that, and a harmony to that, and a harmony to that, and built it up sculpturally with a lot of vibrato on the strings, really pulling the strings madly. Hence, 'Wild Honey Pie', which was a reference to the other song I had written called Honey Pie. It was a little experimental piece." Paul McCartney / Many Years From Now, Barry Miles
Nevertheless the song DID have roots in India according to Paul:
“It was just a fragment of an instrumental, which we were not sure about, but Pattie (Harrison) liked it very much, so we decided to leave it on the album. The track emerged from a spontaneous sing-along in Rishikesh.” One can only wonder how spirited of a “sing-along” could have resulted from such a sparesly lyrical song! In fact, it's highly probable that the song was merely an instrumental piece when it began to take shape in India.
All taken from: https://www.beatlesbible.com/songs/wild-honey-pie/
I forgot that Martha My Dear was possibly a song from India too!
It did not feature in the Esher demos but there is a page in the Anthology book (p. 284 in the german edition) from a notebook with the same layout as the one with Maxwell/Honey Pie. It reads:
1. Obla-dee Obla-da.
2. Scrap heap [Junk (in the yard.)]
4. Back in the U.S.S.R.
5. Country Boy. Mother Nature`son
6. Martha my dear.
7. Silly girl.
8. Rocky Racoon
Again we don`t know for sure wether this was really written down in India or not but the placment in book suggests so.
Ballad has been speculated to be I Will when I discussed this earlier.
Silly girl might have been a idea of it`s own that then was incoporated into Martha my dear. Maybe what became the refrain of that song later ("Take a good look around you"), the term "silly girl" linking it to the theme.
Can anybody tell me which channel the "all the children sing" parts of Bungalow Bill come out of in the 5.1 mix please? For some reason I seem to be missing them along with the "eh up" part at the end. The "ring" and "sing" backing parts in Ob-la-de aren't coming through either. I'm playing it through a PS3 hooked up to a Sony DAV-DZ260. I've checked settings and all speakers are working.....
You've got good eyesight Ken! The beginning of that list is hard to read.
I have the French edition of the Anthology book, but the list is on the same page. And on the next page (285) you can see the cover of the notebook. It says Manjeet Note Book with a drawing of a candle.
BUT in the White Album deluxe edition the cover of the notebook is not the same! (It's a colour picture of an aircraft carrier).
Anyway, putting aside how many notebooks there actually were, I think we can agree that Martha My Dear was gestating in India but came to incorporate Silly Girl later in the year.
As for Maxwell ... there again you're right. In the deluxe edition there are indeed some of the lyrics from this song though without the title. I imagine that, by October '68, Maxwell was next in line to be tackled by Paul but, as Mal said, it arrived too late for the white album.
I hear them on my system, but they are too quiet. Can't remember which speaker they come from, though.
Here's the "Spring Songs" notebook:
Separate names with a comma.