A DAC question for the class

I have wondered if I hook my iPad up the best way to my system (in this one, it's a Marantz PM8004 and Marantz CD6004). I have always used a decent 3.5 to RCA cable from the headphone out of the iPad (a 2nd gen iPad Mini) to the tuner inputs on the integrated. Always been pleased with the sound when streaming internet radio and Pandora/Spotify. Many suggested when I asked this question that I should buy an outboard DAC (which I've resisted doing). Today, it occurred to me that the onboard DAC of the CD player might be better than the onboard DAC of the iPad. The CD6004 has a front panel USB designed to accept an iPod/iPhone for stored music but I suspected it would work as well for streaming. After a little trial and error on the settings of the CD, I found that it worked fine (USB into the CD with the input changed to accept an iPod and the opposite end plugged into the iPad). The CD read the material being played on the iPad and it seemed to sound fine.

OK, with that background, I'm not sure I can hear any difference in sound but there must be, right? Unfortunately, you can't A/B fast enough to really hear the difference on a stream and I don't store music files on my devices so my question for you all is, which onboard DAC is the better of the two - the iPad's or the CD6004's? One would think it would be the CD but that was a $500 deck and the iPad was around the same price (before I bought it from Costco after the next Mini iPad generation was out, so maybe $350 when I bought it). Is there a quantative way to determine which one would be best?

 

I would say there is a difference with the CD player being better.

My Panasonic Blu-ray play is way better than my iPad.
Night and day actually.
The iPad has good depth. But seriously lacks punch and clarity.

I can’t hear it big time even with a long time switching in between.
Music sounds boring from the ipad because of the lack of punch clarity and attack.

Check for those sound qualities and report back.

 

I don't know if it's a form of confirmation bias or not but it seems to sound better using the CD6004 and plugging the iPad into the USB port. One HUGE benefit is one simple cable that also charges the iPad while playing. Jeebus, why didn't someone explain this to me four years ago?!?!

 

Unless you own a fairly expensive audio analyzer there is no real way to quantitatively test your DAC with great accuracy AFAIK. Awhile back some folks were using a program called RightMark IIRC, not sure if that will get you close enough. Check the Audioscience Review site or Archimago's blog if you want to see DAC measurements.

 

One more little thing I remembered, there are settings on the CD for the sound mode which I had set for analog (going from headphone to tuner inputs). I switched it to digital to digital and I swear (confirmation bias) it sounds even a little better. But the biggest benefit is controlling the iPad with the remote and having one small cable hooked up. Just wish the USB port was on the back. Hmm, time to go shopping??

 

What speakers do you have?

I have two active Adam Audio monitors and the sound I have from my blueray player is night and day from my dumb iPad. Ha.

The iPad is like Zzzzzz boring. And the Blu-ray makes you tap your foot. Just the clarity is so much better. Then you can tell the punch and attack.

 

I'm playing through NHT SuperZero 2.1's. Playing some familiar material through Spotify (I have a premium account so better bitrate), it does sound better. And to think I almost bought a cheap outboard DAC. The Marantz has not only the onboard DAC but it's keeping my iPad charged at the same time. Four years before I paid attention to this feature. Sigh...

 

Aw crap, it's worse than I thought! I bought this in 2012 so it's been six years!! Sigh x 2...

 

I might be nuts but I swear, even Pandora sounds better streamed this way (not that I really griped about using the 3.5 to RCA cable). Of course, the limiting factor is using my bookshelf speakers vs. something more revealing. In any event, if you have a CD player or other device that allows this sort of passthrough using the onboard DAC, it's a heckuvadeal.

 

When I use my I-pad it runs digitally to my D.R. DAC, straight through to my Audio Research DAC 8. The sound is much better than you'd expect.

 

Yes it is.

 

The AR DAC 8 is thousands of dollars. I don't know what the D.R. DAC is but one would hope that if you spent many thousands of dollars for DACs that you would hear a significant audible improvement... That's waaaaaaaay beyond the scope of what I was talking about (the DAC used in a $500 Marantz CD player).

 

Connecting your iPad out via USB to your Marantz should sound better because thus you are bypassing the very questionable iPad's headphone out analog amplifier. That should be the biggest improvement, more important than different converting ICs.

 

I think this may have been the key.. I'm thinking when set to analog you were still using the DAC in the iPad. Once you switched to digital it switched to the Marantz Dac maybe? Not sure but a thought.

I recently switched from hooking up my iPhone X directly to my amp via RCA. Thought it sounded good. But I realized that I was relying on the DAC in the iPhone, and figured it had to sound better with an upgraded DAC.

I purchased a Marantz HD-DAC1, and an iPhone USB camera Adaptor and an Audioquest Cinnamon USB cable.

The sound difference was evident. The HD DAC1 is an amazing piece of kit. The clarity at both the upper and lower ends was improved. The midrange, which is crucial in my setup because of the Heresy III's, was perfected. It was the best improvement I've had for under $1k. No doubt.

 

apple products are known for having rather good dac's for being portable products. having billions of dollars in research will get that for you. That being said its still limited and your cd player should sound better. The NHT super zero is a solid speaker but may minimize those differences in actual use.

 

Yes, my understanding too that Apple actually has pretty good internal DACs in their devices. What I'm pleased about is finally realizing I had a pretty good DAC in the Marantz that certainly would be as good as a little cheapie standalone and more elegant as well.

As to the NHT SuperOnes, they are a great speaker but small and probably nowhere near as revealing as much higher end (and larger) speakers. However, it's a beautiful speaker in smaller rooms and far more detailed than many might think.

 

Agreed, especially for its price. I recommend them to people all the time as the best really small/reasonably priced speaker I know of. Used you can find them for a song. Great mix of detailed but not too aggressive.

 

LOL I was simply trying to explain what the Pod is capable of, didn't expect you to cash in your pension plan to finance something similar.

 

That's what I understood you to say,don't no why the O.P. is on the defensive.

 

Once upon a time we measured an iPod, not bad for its time. However, there is much more to electrical circuit performance than just the chips involved. Garbe IN, Garbage OUT, so great DAC and analog chips without great surrounding circuitry will be mediocre at best. And any portable will be challenged in the areas of space, and power supply, and other processing occupying the CPU. So offloading the D/A task makes engineering sense. How much difference will you hear, well, that depends how much tequila you consume during the listening test...

 

A really nice, new DAC will sound even better. You are limited somewhat by the input format, bitrate. So you'll get better and better results the better the source quality. That said, a really good DAC will still improve upon the standard steaming fare. Lots of things going on in a nice DAC that a simple chipset such as in the iPod cannot do as well. I would avoid a cheap DAC though. You already have one. Until you can afford or decide that you really want a nice improvement, I'd hold off and get a significantly better unit. That might run $500 - $1000 depending upon brand, but it'll be worth it in terms of consistently good sound quality.
-Bill

 

Honestly, I'm not a buyer at that level. To my aging ears, what I hear now is pretty good. It's a mid-level system ($1k integrated, $500, CD, $350 NHT SuperOne speakers). Spending $500+ on a standalone DAC isn't in the cards. And, that $1000 Marantz PM8004 only cost me $630 as an open box. The Marantz CD6004 was $370 on the same deal and the speakers were direct from NHT. Oh, and the iPad? An Apple refurbed unit. You can see my dilemma...

 

Yes, you want better sound and yet you're never going to have it.
-Bill

 

Oh well. And yet, it sounds wonderful to me...

 

Any charlatan claiming to be able to foresee the future was always demonstrated to be a liar.