"A Hard Day's Night" tape speed

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by dbryant, May 27, 2002.

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  1. dbryant

    dbryant Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cambridge MA
    Hard Day's Night tape speed

    Compared to some CD transfers I have of the stereo mixes from different sources, the mono AHDN album CD sounds to me like it's running a little faster, at least for several of the songs. The timings appear to be virtually the same, but the groove seems more comfortable on the stereo versions, and the pitch of the mono CD seems a little sharp. Is this true for the mono vinyl and CD singles and EPs as well, or was it just a product of the CD album mastering? And, of course, if no one else hears this difference, let me know that, too...

    Thanks!
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I can tell you that frequencies have psychoacoustic effect on how we perceive the overall pitch of a song. If something has more bass we feel it is slower or more sluggish than something with lots of treble content.
     
  3. Lance Hall

    Lance Hall Senior Member

    Location:
    Fort Worth, Texas
    The whole album sounds like it was sped up. It definately sounds unnaturally fast, almost chirpy. I have slowed down the mono mix of "Can't Buy Me Love" to match the slower stereo mix and that's what I listen to. The slowed down version sounds more natural.

    Lance Hall
     
  4. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I remember reading somewhere that the audio in the MOVIE was slowed down due to frame rate problems with the television monitors in the TV studio scenes. I don't have the mono isssue of the CD to tell if it was sped up or not...
     
  5. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Let's see if I can remember here...

    I believe the TV studio scenes were shot at 25 fps, so that the TV screens wouldn't flicker (the PAL system runs at 25 fps). Movies normally run at 24 fps, so when those scenes are played back they are actually running too slow...
     
  6. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    All,

    I agree with Grant's observation on this matter. The more bass and dynamic range the slower we perceive the speed. The less bass and the less dynamic range, the faster we perceive the speed. The ultimate example of this effect on a Beatles song is Roll Over Beethoven. In the case of A Hard Day's Night, we are discussing a recorded work that is pretty heavily compressed and is essentially EQ'ed midrange and some higher frequencies. There is not much low-end. Great music but, not a sonic gem.

    Bob
     
  7. Sam

    Sam Senior Member

    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Dear Bob,

    When you state that this recording is not a sonic gem, are you speaking from your listening impressions with the cd or original pressing (or mofi) vinyl? I once had the cd (that is still the one they currently sell in the stores) and it was truly horrible. I bought the mofi vinyl and that is wonderful! Night and day in comparison to the poor job they did with the cd. The master tape is very good for that year. George Martin knew what he was doing.
     
  8. John Carsell

    John Carsell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northwest Illinois
    He obviously knew what he was doing when he originally recorded The Beatles, but when he supervised the CD reissues, that's a different story.
     
  9. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Sam,

    I am referring to the sound on the commonly available CD. Do not get me wrong, I love the music and enjoy listening to A Hard Day's Night. I have an original vinyl pressing Mono LP that is only slightly better, in my opinion, than the commonly available Mono CD as mastered and issued. I never purchased the MFSL version. My only complaints on the sound quality of Beatles recordings prior to Rubber Soul are two-fold: to me the recordings, as we hear them, sound pinched of dynamic range and they were over EQ'ed (too much high end boost and roll-off of the low end). I have no doubt that the absolute original master tapes display sound that none of us have ever, and may never, hear. Beginning with Rubber Soul and subsequent releases, the Beatles recordings have, generally, more fidelity with each release in the catalog, chronologically. I have no doubts about what George Martin captured but, in other words, real criticisms on what we, the buying public, gets to hear.

    These criticisms have nothing to do with my opinion of the artistic value of what I hear. I love the music!

    Bob :)
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Funny...I find the quality of the stereo mixes of the first four or five albums to be better than Rubber Soul, Revolver, etc... A Hard Day's Night in stereo is REALLY great. I still can't quite fathom why they didn't use the stereo mix on CD.
     
  11. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Luke,

    I enjoy the sonics on the Stereo mixes much more than the Mono mixes on the first four LP's. They are more open and airy as compared to the Mono. Those Stereo mixes are more panned left/right when compared to Stereo mixes on Rubber Soul and Revolver. I just wish they (the Stereo mixes, first four albums) had more low-end and less high frequency boost (more balanced). The MFSL's that I either have or have heard sound like they have been further boosted on the high end, which only adds to the problem. The Mono mixes, as mastered, leave a lot be desired, sonically.

    Great, great music though!

    Bob
     
  12. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Bob,

    I think that the mono mix of 'A Hard Day's Night' sounds excellent on my UK Y/B black pressing. The high is a little boosted and the bass is rolled off but the mid-range is excellent. 'And I Love Her' sounds really sweet in all areas (IMO). I also like the stereo mix (I have a 70's UK reissue/different masting, etc.). I think some of the songs in stereo are brilliant ('I Should Have Known Better'/don't we all?, 'If I Fell ', 'Things We Said Today', etc.) but some are clinkers "mix-wise" ('Can't Buy Me Love', I'll Be Back', etc.). I would be very curious to hear how the stereo Y/B vinyl (with Tubes, etc.) sounds. As I guess with all of use, I think the Beatles material is very, very important to be released in both stereo & mono (If other bands get this treatment then why not the mop tops??/I know, I know).

    Also, If I recall correctly (which is rare) I think another reason why the songs in the film are of a different speed (slower) is because they gave the film early, rough mixes to work with for shooting and then later the mixes were sped up a bit for the album, singles & EP's (common practive, give the songs more of a 'Goose-step mamma' groove). I may be wrong but I think I saw an interview with Dick Lester about this...

    Todd

    P.S. The mono mix of 'Beatles for Sale' is a clunker (IMO)...
     
  13. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Todd,

    Sadly, I have never heard a UK Y/B so I have no reference point....just my old UA Mono LP and the official CD release, of course. I have the Stereo mixes on a boot. I love the music but, I just wish there was more dynamic range, more low-end and less high frequency boost. While I love the Beatles music, I have been, generally, disappointed with the sound on CD, especially the first four Mono albums. Your point about Stereo/Mono release is well taken, in my opinion. You may be right about "speed" issue. I certainly have never heard that story but I am far from omnipotent as well. I have often thought about what the Beatles albums might sound like if they were ever mastered by Steve and he had access to the right tapes. Sincerely, I honestly believe we would hear more musical sounding Beatles recordings including more dynamic range, more low-end and less HF boost.

    Bob
     
  14. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Bob,

    If you can, try and get your hands on a mono Y/B of 'A Hard Days Night' (even the 80's reissue). I have a VG-VG+ copy of the first pressing (it has a lot of surface noise but I can mentally filter that out. etc.) and I can hear the "tubes" midrange magic. One day, I'll get a better mono Y/B copy of 'A Hard Days Night' (minus surface noise/yuck) so I can enjoy it more. The CD sounds horrible compared to this (sans the surface noise of course/maybe because of how it was mastered and the equipment used??). I think the UA versions sounds much different than the Y/B (the "magic" isn't there/mastering?).

    I think a good indication of what Steve can do with the early Beatles stuff is to listen to his 'Gerry & the Pacemakers' CD. It's a small taste leaving one hungry for more...

    Also, this is related to a different thread but I made a CD-R for you from vinyl. I was enjoying my copy of 'Deja Vu' this weekend and I decided to make you a CD-R of it. It has some flaws (a few click, etc.) but I think this particular vinyl edition is very nice sounding. PM me your address and I'll send it to you...

    Todd
     
  15. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Todd,

    I guess I will have to seek out a copy (UK Y/B) in order to enjoy the sonics on that LP. I have the Gerry & the Pacemakers CD as mastered by Steve and I really enjoy it.

    As always, thanks for the discussion!

    Bob
     
  16. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Hrmm, I've never heard anything like that. Note that, at the time, the only way they would have had to speed up or slow things down would have been to wrap tape around the capstan. It wasn't until 1966 or so that they had any way to do "vari-speed"...
     
  17. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Luke,

    I understand making the Capstan larger was an old trick--with tape or a like substance. Have you heard this?

    Bob
     
  18. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Bob,

    Yes, that 'Gerry & the Pacemakers' CD is fantastic. I think 'Oldies' stations should use that disc as their source (do they care about such things??). I really think you should get a nice mono Y/B vinyl of 'A Hard Day's Night' because it does (IMO) sound fantasic. I think well worth the investment (depending on what condition you track down). I would be curious to hear what Steve and other forum members think about the sound quality of the Y/B mono...

    Todd

    P.S. If you find a stereo Y/B (for a fair price/actually 2, one for you & one for me) let me know...
     
  19. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Todd,

    Aye, Aye Cap!

    Bob ;)
     
  20. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Luke,

    I'm trying to remember where I heard about the speed issue with the film. For now, I'm thinking there was an interview or snippets on a broadcast of 'A Hard Day's Night' on one of the cable channels a few years ago (???). Maybe it was the producer. What I do remember is that "person X" said that the songs they were given (early mixes/whatever) which were needed for playback for shooting the film were (I think) a bit slower than the final mixes. Again from memory, the mono mixes in the film were slightly different because they had to prepare mixes (rather than the rough ones used for filming) that would match these timing problems. So, the records were a bit different...


    Todd

    P.S. If I'm mistaken then I apologize...
     
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Yeah, re-read my post...

    However, based on all the various versions and bootlegs, I tend to think this isn't the case...
     
  22. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Luke,

    Earth to Bob..come in!

    Sorry, I just missed what you wrote!

    Bob ;)
     
  23. Lance Hall

    Lance Hall Senior Member

    Location:
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Well, anyway, in the case of the "A Hard Day's Night" album, it's still sounds sped up and not a psychoacoustic misperception.

    Lance Hall
     
  24. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    I don't have access to my AMC copy of 'A Hard Day's night' (with original mono soundtrack/not stereo added songs) but maybe someone else who does can do a quick comparason on some of the songs...


    Todd
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Folks, I came late to this thread, sorry.

    #1 The reason that the songs in the MOVIE are slower, is simply that they were played back at the wrong speed when filming. I was told by someone who was there (and just died I'm sorry to say), that the music was played back on DISCS, and that the playback turntable was off speed, so when it came time to lay the real music in during post production they had to slow the actual tapes down to match (by transferring the tapes to 35mm mag and slowing them down from 24 frames to 20 or something like that.

    #2 The CD of "A Hard Days' Night" is correctly on speed. In other words, the when the CD is played back (give or take a little bit of tape machine to tape machine weirdness), the songs are pretty darn much in the keys that they were recorded in. "Can't Buy Me Love" is in C major, "And I Love Her" in E major, etc.
     
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