Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by LakeMountain, Jan 18, 2020.
$4,399.99 for the TD1600 in Canada - over and out for me lol
How do you know that Thorens via Fuchs didn't make arrangement with Fink to promote this expensive turntable in such a "spontaneous" way? This special PR is not unusual and the desired effect is exactly what you tend to believe. Hey, the basher is now a convert, he even ditched the mighty Transrotor!
The fact that he likes TD 124 DD and dislikes TD1600 have nothing in common. How do you know he makes no money on it? Because he swore on his facebook? Maybe you sense the pulse of this hi-end soap opera clique better than me, so I could be wrong, but from my distance this looks like a PR stunt and can't see why are you so upset and insist I accept your opposite impression as a fact. Unless you are Fuchs or Fink personally.
You didn't answer my question:
To which standard was the so called pre-production unit made and why? Or, what is a pre-production unit, what's its purpose and why it was made with lower specs in the first place? What I said is that I don't buy the story that the pre-production unit was some dummy for photographing, but a real represent of the standard Yahorng offering. Then Thorens jumped in with stricter demands and they improved it, which I do accept. So, you falsely accuse me of not accepting facts.
I never said they look like dj decks. I said I want to see the original design cues, not what I see on cheap dj decks, which means elements, not entirety. Who got what wrong, please?
I don't know what to say... These accusations are borderline crazy. You didn't show any valid evidence to support your claims.
I addressed 1 and 2 above.
For 3 I said I'm aware that measurements can vary due to equipment and standards = w&f numbers in tech sheets are not (always) comparable. So I accept that. But I also said they must have certain significance and can not be that easily neglected as the new "trendsetters" wish for. I tend to believe there is a certain weight in a, say, 60 years of tradition in publishing them, which can hardly be a result of pressure from "customers like me" (your words).
No 4 - I don't understand the accusation, if you could point me to that, please?
You take things too literally, I must notice.
Not mixing them, just using the simplified colloquial format.
Here I can agree partially. Always listen. But don't waste time listening to awful specs and fall on a propaganda they don't matter.
Is that not true? The one pictured on the Automatic Dual site IS Fehrenbacher.
Well, no matter that, Thorens is certainly late to the party. It took them 90 years to realize they were wrong to abandon their initial invention. Now it's kinda sad to see they are going back to their roots via a copycat of a design (supposedly) inspired by them.
I see the audience is throwing tomatoes at us, so I think it's time to leave the stage.
Where's a Raphael Mabo when you need one?
- Fink bought the TD 124 DD for his own money to be used in his own reference system in his home.
He is a passionate music lover and wants good sound in his home when he relaxes after work.
He sold his ”made in Germany” high-end Transrotor and replaced it with the TD 124 DD because he felt that the TD124 sounds better.
He has high demands of a turntable and sound.
Of course he can’t relax to a substandard player. And you believe he will torture his ears on his free time away from work with something he is not pleased with.
You see a conspiracy where there is none.
- The numbers in a tech sheet for w&f is not comparable and I’ve already explained why. I’ve done this several times already. This means that you can’t use them as a tool for comparison between turntables. You have to listen.
- Many turntable makers don’t publish w&f. Thorens didn’t under the CEO Heinz Rohrer. No one of the new turntables under Heinz Rohrer had w&f numbers in their tech sheet. Four sound reasons. Many high end companies does not publish w&f.
Informed and educated customers knows that those numbers can’t be used to compare turntables, because every turntable is going to measure differently in different labs. That’s just how things are and nothing you can change.
- The standard for professional tape machines was 0.1% w&f in the 70’s. Also cutting machines has w&f. This means analogue recordings cut on vinyl records has w&f in themselves. This means there will always be w&f when listening to turntables. If you want to get rid of w&f, get yourself a CD player and listen to digital recordings, mixing and mastering.
- So you don’t accept that the TD 402 reviewed was a pre-production model. A pre-production model is a model still in development. When you design and make a turntable you make prototypes. Then you make pre-production units to test materials and performance and you adjust things on the way before the product is ready for regular production.
Car makers and other producers of consumer products works in the same way.
The pre-production unit of the TD 402 was used in the US to show the dealers and distributor what was coming, to educate them about the product and raise interest for it before the final product was shipping. It was never meant to be reviewed.
Pre-production units are not perfect, they don’t have to be since they are development units. Units still in development.
- I told you that the new Dual automatics models were going to have a new design. You failed to accept this. Instead you insisted on that they would look like Fehrenbacher.
I told you that they are not going to be suspended designs. After this you still insisted on that they would have it.
So you don’t accept facts. The image on the Dual Gmbh isn’t an image of the new automatics. I’ve already told you so and now I tell you again. They haven’t released their new automatic series yet. No official images has been released.
But they will follow the new Dual design by mr Alfred Langer since they are designed by him.
I did post a link to a canadian dealer that has released an image a little too early and are already taking orders from it. This image shows a CS 429 with the same solid plinth, tonearm, platter speed control knob as the new CS 418.
But the control panel has gained two additional buttons.
Thorens has abandoned idler drive because it would be too costly. They haven’t abandoned belt drives nor direct drives. Thorens invented the direct drive and in the late 70’s and early 80’s they had several direct drives intented for professional use in dance studios etc.
And no, I’m not upset at all. I simply notice that you don’t know what you are talking about, you refuses to accept facts and you can’t admit that you got it all wrong.
Those are simply observations of your behavior. Neutral observations and not insults.
I do of course read things litteraly. I have autism spectrum disorder called Aspberger. Aspberger is not borderline, it’s not a mental illness, and I’m not crazy. Your accusations that I’m crazy is not true.
It simply means my brain is very specialized and differs from the norm.
I’m obsessed by facts and information you could say. This is classic Aspberger.
What do you mean? I’m here!
Some Thorens tables are being made by Fehrenbacher, the same manufacturer that does produce Dual turntables. Those tables are definitely not bad turntables, but in my opinion these tables are not of the same
Those modern German made Dual and Thorens tables are not bad tables at all, BUT they are just not as good as their ancestors from the seventies and early eighties. At least, when it comes to value for money..........Having said that, it's not realistic to expect today's manufacturers to build turntables the way they used to do in the golden age of vinyl. Alfred Fehrenbacher, a former employee from the old Dual company, breathed new life into Dual and he managed to recreate the 505. Other models can not be manufactured anymore since all old machines are gone.......It would take too much money to invest in rebuilding these machines.
If I were to buy a Thorens or Dual turntable there is no doubt in my mind I would buy a well maintained or refurbished vintage one.
Asperger. Wishing you all the best.
Asperger, I suppose it is a gift and a burden? Thanks for sharing! And great that you spent your time on such a nice topic!
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