A new Thorens era coming?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by LakeMountain, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Technically, Taiwan's official name is Republic of China. But I see your point. However, Taiwanese Hanpin is not really a synonym for quality.
     
  2. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    It’s not made by Hanpin. It’s made by Yang Horn. ;) Yang Horn has a quality production and the owner is a Thorens enthusiast. They can build everything that their clients order from them. If one orders quality, they build quality.

    Look at the TD1600/1601, this was engineered and designed by Walter Fuchs (from Fink Audio Consulting, headed by the famous Karl-Heinz Fink, one of the worlds most acclaimed speaker designers, close friend with the late Ken Ishiwata and he’s done a lot of work for Marantz Europe, Tannoy, Q-Accoustics and many others) and the genious Helmut Thiele who is an icon in the German audio industry, responsible for the design of many highly acclaimed German audio products. It has got rave reviews and was voted turntable of the year in the EISA awards. The same team were also responsible for the new TD124 DD built by Yang Horn, using Yang Horns direct drive engine with Walter Fuchs own motor control unit that gives the 124 DD a smoother and more musical analogue sound than traditional direct drives. Karl-Heinz Fink has replaced his big, heavy high-end Transrotor ”made in Germany” with the Taiwanese built TD124 DD, because the Thorens performs better. His Transrotor is now sold and the TD124 DD has taken his place in Fink’s own reference system.

    The TD1600/1601 uses the same TP92 tonearm as on my TD309 and it’s an excellent performer, but it’s now produced by Yang Horn instead of in Germany. Same quality construction.

    I think the problem is that Yang Horn has produced many budget turntables for different brands, and budget turntables are not of the highest quality - using cheaper materials and construction to get the cost down. Not even the Taiwaneses can build cheap budget turntables without compromises.

    But they can build everything, from cheap budget turntables to exclusive high end. They make what their clients order them to make.

    And it’s the same thing with Hanpin. They have got a bad reputation because they have made tons of cheap budget turntables. But they can build everything. It’s their clients that sets the standard, they sets the specification.

    The TD402 is a perfectly OK direct drive for it’s price using a good drive and a carbon tonearm. Sure it’s not perfect at it’s price point, it’s not a high end model, not even a mid market model. And it benefits from good support, as other turntables for similar price since it’s more sensitive to acoustic feedback than more expensive turntables.

    Dual Gmbh has comissioned Hanpin to build their new turntables that are designed and engineered by the Dual enthusiast mr Alfred Langer, who also builds high-end turntables in Germany under his own name. They will use the asian drive system, they are - according to mr Langer - high quality and reliable constructions that performs well. The new belt driven CS 418 and 518 has already been released, with a direct drive semiautomatic the CS618Q to follow this summer and it will compete with the TD402.

    The Helmut Thiele designed Magnat MTT990 is built by Hanpin and is a high quality construction in an exclusive and resonance damped plinth.

    So the asians can surely make quality turntables if their clients orders them to do it.

    It’s too expensive to make them in Germany.
     
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  3. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    You mean Yahorng. The other Hanpin.

    PR stunt. Or it speaks a lot about Transrotor.

    I agree.

    Then the clients should ask themselves what are they doing, because everything that comes from these factories is of questionable quality and unmistakable Taiwanese looks.

    See above - they scream Hanpin: spindle, platter, tonearm, counterweight, general W&F figure of "<1%" etc...
    Too bad if Dual discontinued the German models. That would mean Thorens too, as they were made at the same factory.
     
  4. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    Not at all. He has bought the TD124 DD for himself for his own reference system and he has sold his Transrotor to make room for the TD 124 DD. I’ve found out this on his personal Facebook. Mr Fink is a sound and music enthusiast, that’s why he’s gotten into the audio business. He has high demands and he wouldn’t use the TD 124 DD for his personal enjoyment when he relaxes home after a busy day, if the sound didn’t met his high standards and exclusive demands.

    His collegaue Walter Fuchs works for him, but Fuchs also works for others - such as Thorens.
    The TD124 DD was engineered by Walter Fuchs. And he’s a genious. He engineered the TD309 that I have.

    Mr Fink really likes the TD 124 DD and it has got numerous awards and rave reviews in Germany. The tonearm TP 124 was designed by Helmut Thiele in collaboration with the famous tonearm brand EMT and it uses the same high quality low friction bearings from Japan as his TP92 design.

    What’s questionable with the quality of the TD 124 DD or the Thorens TD1600/1601? In what what do they have ”unmistakable Taiwanese looks”?

    They were not designed by the Taiwanese. They were designed by Helmut Thiele. He is German. I would say that the TD 124 DD and the TD1600/1601 has an unmistakable Thorens look. In what way do they look Taiwanese to you?

    Or look at the new Teac TN-5B. In what way does it have ”questionable quality”? And it’s looks is really far away from the Thorens models.

    Music Hall The Classic and Fluence are highly regarded models, not ”questionable quality”. Plus the Teacs.

    1. The tonearms on the new Duals were designed and engineered by Alfred Langer. He’s German. You hurt his feelings when you call his designs Hanpin. He has simplified the Dual-look to keep the cost down. But it is really his designs. And they uses low friction bearings to his specifications. They all come from his computer transferred to Hanpins CAD/CAM system.

    2. The new Dual’s are entry level turntables. < 0.1 % w&f is good for the price point and the w&f is so low you can’t hear it. The numbers comes from production models, not selected units. Plus you really can’t compare w&f numbers among brands, because there are many ways to measure w&f and the numbers are useless if you don’t measure the products you wish to compare with the same measuring equipment in the very same lab. Mr Langer has a large collection of old Dual turntables and he has measured them in his own lab with his own equipment. None of those Duals comes down to the w&f numbers in their specs sheets. This only shows that is utterly useless to compare numbers in specification sheets.

    What I write here is what he himself has said on the german Dual forums, his username is ”Dualfref” there. So this comes from him and I see no reason to not believe him.

    You show again that you have no idea what you are talking about.

    The fact is that the turntables were made by Fehrenbacher Gmbh. Dual Gmbh owns the Dual-name and Fehrenbacher had a limited license to make turntables under the Dual name. Dual Gmbh has withdrawn their license so Fehrenbacher no longer has the rights to produce and market turntables under the Dual name.

    This has no affect on the Thorens models produced by Fehrenbacher. They still produces the TD190-2, 103A and 148A for Thorens. They also produces turntables for Perpetuum-Ebner and others. Fehrenbacher is an OEM maker and they still lives on. They just don’t have the rights to produce and sell turntables under the Dual name anymore.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
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  5. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Quite naive IMO, but I'm not here to change your mind.
    I can see you misunderstood my statement by taking the word "everything" literally. I didn't refer to these top models you mention, but to other models and companies - Audio Technica, Onkyo, Denon, lower Thorens models etc. I'm not buying the story that TD 402 Fremer disliked was a pre-production model for posing in front of the camera. You don't send such model to Fremer for a review, OR you clearly inform him what he received. That model IS the Taiwanese standard offering that you see most and relate the Taiwanese (non)quality with. They probably can do better under tight control, but that's not what they are famous for. They are famous for the opposite. Thorens will have to do a lot to convince me and like minded. But at this point I don't see why I'd bother with that when we have Technics around.
    Same applies here. There were many complaints for the cheaper TEACs. This expensive one is made in the same factory. Why would I bother giving it a chance after such complaints? Like, they've learned the lesson? Or because it has a marble facade and glass platter? Unconvincing. What about W&F? "0,1 or less". LOL
    Re looks, it may be far from Thorens, but is pretty close to cheap Akai. BTW except for the top Thorens, the other Taiwan made Thorens models look like a Chinese attempt to recreate a classic design: you see the classic shades, but you clearly see the Chinese elements, too: spindle, platter, tonearm wand, counterweight, arm lift stick, gimbal mechanism etc, mentioned it earlier. There's even some kitsch moment, like those vintage looking radios made today. I notice the same (not the kitsch, the rest) with the new Duals, and I dislike it. They lost the Dual looks, only few details are retained. Ferenbacher has a more Dual look. That's why I say "the clients should ask themselves what are they doing". If Taiwanese can manufacture whatever you order, why Dual takes a Hanpin table and puts a make-up on it with few Dual design cues instead of keeping the Dual recognizability? Why make a Dual out of Hanpin parts? No matter the specs are to higher level.
    He told you that I hurt his feelings?:rolleyes: Tell him wasn't my intention.

    Exactly the problem that puts me off.

    That is good to hear but it will take a lot of effort and time to make me accept the Hanpin looking Dual. They should've kept the original looks. The cs 505 for example was a perfectly fine turntable for the money with pleasant original Dual feel.
    In the good old times that was the upper limit of acceptability. We have already more than a decade of intensive turntable revival and these figures should be left behind, especially with the presence of Technics as competition that offers 10 times better W&F at the same/lower price point.
    So, Dual lied about specs for decades or what? Sounds like a relativisation in order to smear the weak point of W&F.

    That's a fairly new thing obviously and if someone is not familiarized with it yet there's no need for cheap forum triumphalism and insults. Anyway, good to know that, thank you. BTW if you look at this page, you'll see the Fehrenbacher design on the photo, saying "Work in progress". Because you know what you are talking about, do you happen to know who is going to manufacture them?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  6. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    The problem with you is that you don’t accept facts. Karl-Heinz Fink bought the TD124 DD to be used in his own reference system in his own home and he has sold his Transrotor. He has said this himself.
    He has praised the TD124 DD for it’s solid non-suspended plinth and the solid tonearm ”that doesn’t fall apart when you look at it”.

    Hey, he doesn’t even like suspended turntables despite he has designed the suspension for the TD 309. Yes he has said this too. He feels suspended turntables are too wobbly he has said this to. So much for PR for Thorens…
    He engineers what the clients asks him to do. But when he has free choice, he chooses the heavy battlebrick the TD 124 DD for his own reference system. Because he likes how it performs. He wouldn’t take it into his own personal living room in his own home and selling his own personal Transrotor if he didn’t liked the performance of the TD 124 DD.

    Both Hanpin and Yan Horng builds what their clients asks them to and to their clients specifications. They can build everything.
    And that was my point.

    [quote
    I'm not buying the story that TD 402 Fremer disliked was a pre-production model for posing in front of the camera. You don't send such model to Fremer for a review, OR you clearly inform him what he received. That model IS the Taiwanese standard offering that you see most and relate the Taiwanese (non)quality with.
    [/quote]

    Of course you don’t accept facts.
    Mr Fremer took a pre-production model and reviewed it. Thorens didn’t asked him to review it. They have asked him to clarify in his review that it was a pre-production model, a prototype that Thorens has toured with to show to the distributors before the production started. It was never meant to be reviewed. Mr Fremer could have waited to get his hands on a production model, but he wanted to be early.

    The production model does not have the issues mr Fremer pointed out. They have all been solved. You have prejudice against Taiwanese production.

    The cheaper Teacs has of course compromises. All budget entry level turntables are compromised in construction to get the cost down. Those compromises does not exist higher up the range. It’s not about ”learning the lesson”, it’s about that you are expecting high end performance at entry level budget price. One can’t achieve 3 000 euro performance in a turntable that sells for 300 euro. Maybe Teac did a misstake by offering inexpensive turntables.

    I’m glad that you are happy. People should be more happy in this world, so when you are happy then I’m happy too.

    < 0.1 % is perfectly fine for a budget turntable.
    Professional tape machines had the standard < 0.1% because under 0.1% the human ear can’t hear differences. So the difference between, say, 0,03% or 0,09% are not audible.

    Now, measuring w&f on turntables are more complicated than on tape machines, I come to this later below.

    Dual Gmbh makes one turntable in their own workshop, the 7 000 euro Dual Reference. The Chinese built new Duals has the same looks. Same plinth design, same motor control knob and other similarities. It is mr Alfred Langees design. He didn’t wanted to go the Thorens route and making vintage looking Duals. This is Dual’s new design from the 7 000 euro Reference hand-built in Germany all the way down to the chinese built models.

    Yes both Hanpin and Yan Horng can produce what ever their clients order them to. The TD124 DD and TD1600/1601 is an example of this. The TP92 made by Yan Horng is identical to the TP92 that was made in Germany, the only difference is that mr Günter Kurten (CEO Thorens) wanted a tracking force dial to be counterweight and mr Helmut Thiele added one to the design.

    There was one in the Dual forum that wrote that Langers new tonearms looked like a Chinese one, and mr Langer replied with that he felt hurt by that comment because all the tonearms on the new Duals has been designed by him. The person that made the original remark then apologised to mr Langer, like you did now.

    There are many tonearms with similarities, that doesn’t mean they are all the same.

    The Thorens TP92 tonarm uses a cartridge carrier and fingerlift that looks the same as on tonearms from Clearaudio, Acoustic Signature and Perpetuum Ebner. Are they all making the same tonearm? No, they simply all uses the same idea with a cartridge carrier for easier mounting of the cartridge.

    And the Technics tonearms looks like so many other japanese S-shaped tonearms from the 7’s so they all must be the same, right?

    It’s not a Hanpin design, it’s mr Langers own design.

    That turntable was a leftover from the 1980’s. Fehrenbacher stopped producing it because they ran out of parts and they didn’t had the money to invest in new tooling to make the parts. Their old machines making the parts were worned out.

    Also note that the CS 505 was a suspended design. Dual has suspended the suspension, if you pardon the pun. Simply because it was too expensive.

    .

    I’ve never said that Dual was lying.
    What I did say that all turntables will give different w&f readings in different labs, this means that the numbers in tech sheet are not comparable between makers since the turntables was not tested in the same lab.

    I understand that you trust numbers, the problem is that you don’t understand that there are many ways to test w&f. Plus that what makers did in the past, some may still do it, is that they took selected unit - a hand bult prototype and gives the maximum w&f. They always had lower w&f than the production units. So it looked good on paper. The numbers that Dual gives for their new machines are average w&f for production units.

    w&f are mostly measured by test records. Those records has different qualities and some has high w&f themselves due to the cutting machines.

    So w&f measurements has high variations and can be all over the place for the same turntable when tested in different labs. That’s why tech sheets with w&f are completely useless and can’t be used to compare different models.

    Re: Technics. The Made in Malaysia SL1200 mk 7 is more expensive than the two new turntables that Dual has released, so not the same price point. For the coming 618Q I don’t know the price, it will be released this summer.
    There’s no official specifications released yet and not even an official picture, the pictures floating around on the internet are prototype models from mr Langers workbench.

    I simply stated facts, it was not an insult.
    You enjoy making a lot of false assumptions and accusations. It would be better if you were more humble and modest in your approach instead of being so hostile and negative.

    You are welcome.
    All their new CS models will be made by the same company. So the automatics are going to be made in the same factory as the two new CS models that were released earlier this year. Fehrenbacher no longer makes any turntables under the Dual name.

    Mr Andrew Langer has searched for German production, but none were able to produce to his design and specifications for under 1 000 euro. That is why they turned to the Chinese for the new models. German production would make the turntables far too expensive. He wanted to have them built in Germany, but it wasn’t possible. They would have had to be sold at a price that wasn’t competetive.

    The turntables made by Fehrenbacher used a platform and chassi that was developed when Thomson owned the brand after the original Dual went into liqvidation in the late 80’s. The patents has run out so everyone can make turntables based on this platform.

    The new automatics will be of a new design. i don’t have any more details since mr Langer has not given out more.
     
  7. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    Re: w&f.
    There are DIN, RMS, ISO, unweighted, weighted, average and peak. DIN is twice as much as WRMS. But turntables still gets different results in different labs even when the numbers are given according to the same standard. Because there is no exact way to measure w&f on turntables. So the numbers are useless as customer information. If one goes after w&f numbers when choosing a turntable then one is fooled. I’m sorry but this is the way it is. They are pointless.
    They only have a meaning when the different turntables is measured in the very same lab with the very same measuring equipment.
    Magasine tests this way, but different magazines gets different results - just as the turntable makers labs gets different results.
    So w&f numbers are not a valid argument.
    And are not comparable. Comparing of old vs new tech sheet is also foolish.
     
  8. Pavol Stromcek

    Pavol Stromcek Senior Member

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    *Unwatches thread*
     
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  9. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Nah. I accept facts, but someones word for something is not a fact, even if it comes from engineer authority. Speaking of problems I think you are too sensitive when Thorens is criticized. Sorry that I don't like the idea of Taiwan made Thorens. Hanpin and Yahorng are known for turntable issues. In my book those names don't go together with Thorens or Dual. No matter how many times you'll repeat "they build what the clients order". Like, blame the clients they spec'd the turntables low? Don't think so. They offer ready platforms to the clients that can be tightened/modified if requested. Hanpin's top platform was the DJ 5500 aka Super OEM, a copy of Technics 1200mk2. No matter the client (Reloop, Pioneer etc.) it never-ever happened they released issues free version of this deck. Again - their top model. So you say I have prejudice against Taiwan manufacturing? No, I have experience with it. Good luck to Thorens and Dual cleaning that image. It will take years and many, many sold items and paid reviews.

    If W&F is so relative and unimportant to a customer, why it exists at all as a measurement and is published?
    Check the price of TN-5BB you quoted and its w&f.
    Hanpin?
    The image looks like the previous Fehrenbacher models.
    It would be interesting to compare the Hanpin made CS and the Fehrenbacher Thorens 190.
    Also, it's a bit of a paradox to have a Dual looking Thorens (190 and 202) made by a company (Fehrenbacher) that had direct connection with the original Dual from which it took and continued the manufacturing.

    It was insult, because you said I don't know what am I talking about, while I stated a fact that was recently modified and the wider audience wasn't informed yet about it. You rushed into triumphalism while you could have familiarize me with the change in a polite way.
    Like what? That w&f of 0.1 is too much by any standard and Technics is better in that regard? Or that Taiwanese turntable manufacturing is known for quality issues and not the opposite? That's not wrong assumption/accusation but widespread experience. What is assumption is your claim that Taiwanese can make a quality turntable only if someone asks them to do. We have yet to see that. All these supposedly hq, issue-free Thorenses and Duals are on the market since yesterday and have to prove the quality, while the Taiwanese proven junk is around for decades. These changes don't happen overnight. Technics is so highly regarded because it proved itself over 50 years.

    I was just stating facts, to which you are obviously too sensitive, wasn't I?

    Another wrong assumption of yours. I'm perfectly aware of the different standards for measuring W&F and its relativity. However, that "0.1 or less" figure is notorious as a too general, cover up spec for the Taiwanese tables, used like an empty phrase. It's there just to fulfill the spec space, but is not real and correct. If they don't publish it, it would be too suspicious, so they put it there just as place holder. Pioneer even corrected it as a typo from 0.1 to 0.01 or less after people reacted, so the PLX 1000 is now better than Technics 1200. LOL
    The picture of the automated new Dual looks suspended, ie like before. But we shall see.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  10. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Never said you did, it was a question, like which numbers should I believe, the new from yesterday or the old, published for decades? Or I should buy a measuring equipment first?
     
  11. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    RPM,
    No you don’t accepts facts.
    Karl-Heinz Fink bought the TD124 DD for his own money to be used in his own reference system in his own home. This is a fact!
    It’s also a fact that he has sold his Transrotor. He put an image of his Transrotor on his personal FB and wrote that it’s now sold and on it’s way to the new user.
    The problem with you is that you believe people are liers.

    Mr Fermer reviewed a pre-production unit that wasn’t meant to be reviewed. The profuction unit does not have the problems mr Fremer wrote about. This is facts, but you don’t accept facts and that is why you don’t know what you are talking about.

    You may not like the idea of Thorens or Dual going to Taiwan or China. But if those turntables would be made in Germany they would cost twice as much. The TD1600/1601 would be + 6 000 euro turntables instead of 3 000 euro. The TD 124 DD would cost close to 20 000 euro instead of 9 000 euro.

    That’s the economical reality. It’s simply not possible to have get good economics with German production.

    Mr Langer claims that the Fehrenbacher models was sold for too little, they had not enough margin. That’s why Fehrenbacher didn’t had the money to invest in new machines and tooling.

    To have the new entry level Dual automatics made in Germany would raise their cost above 1 000 euro and Mr Langer feels that there is not enough market for automatics + 1 000 euros. The market wants manual turntables at that price point.

    Fehrenbacher’s total production annually for Dual, Thorens and Perpetuum Ebner for the world wide market never exceeded 5 000 units.
    This was simply to low to be cost efficient.

    You show repeatedly that you don’t know what you are talking about, and it’s not an insult to notice that. If you did know what you were talking about then I didn’t had to correct you all the time. But I continue correct you because what you write is false and untrue, and as long as you are giving out false information that is actually desinformation then I will correct you.

    I’m only interested in facts and truth. Nothing else.

    I have two times explained w&f for you and why it can’t be used to compare models from w&f numbers. And you still refuses to accept facts. I won’t repeat what I’ve already tokd you, but I urge you to go back and re-read what I wrote.

    The very same turntable gets different w&f readings in different labs. This is a fact.
    Numbers are given because customers like you demands numbers and it doesn’t matter to you that they aren’t comparable, you want the numbers anyway.

    Mr Langer has measured his collection of vintage Dual’s and all of them has given higher w&f than the tech sheets. Because of the reasons that I’ve already told you.

    The numbers for mr Langers new designs are more honest than for the old models because he has taken units from the regular production run and measured them. They didn’t do this in the past. But they will still show different readings measured by others in others lab’s because there is lot of ways measuring w&f and using different test records and equipment gives different results.

    Under Heinz Rohrers leadership, Thorens didn’t publish w&f for his new turntables. He felt that the numbers were only confusing and misleading the customers. There’s still many turntable makers that doesn’t publish them because they know and understands that the numbers are misleading.

    But then we have customers like you that demands numbers and press the makers to publish them because you fail to accept that they are misleading.

    You don’t accept this because you don’t accept facts. And here you have a problem. But you are not a turntable engineer, so you don’t know. But it is interresting that you believe you know more than turntable engineers.

    Mr Langer has it’s own high-end brand of turntables. You can find them here:
    Langer

    As you can see, he likes solid chunky plinths. Just as his designs for Dual Gmbh. And you may notice other design clues between his own brand and his new Duals, like the knob for the speed selector.

    Re: the image for an automatic at the Dusl Gmbh.

    This is an image of an old one, they just put it there to have an image in the header instead of an empty spot. The new CS automatics are not released yet so there is therefore no official images of them yet. But according to mr Langer they will follow the style of his other designs for Dual. So when they are officially released and you can see how they look like, I’m sure you are going to be unhappy with them.

    I’ve already told you that the new automatics will have a new design and are not going to look like the old ones, but again you refuses to accept this. The new ones are designed by mr Langer. They will follow his new design for the new Dual family.

    Re: quality
    It’s not uncommon that there are issues with low cost budget turntables, Rega and Pro-Ject has numerous faults reports for their cheapest turbtables on different forums. Those things can happen. But Hanpin and Yan Horng actually has a higher level of manufacturing.

    Thorens are not in the cheapest market, their entry model the TD201 cost more than the cheapest units from Teac, Audio-Technica and others. This is because if you go lower the product will be too compromised. So Thorens has decided to not offer any turntable below 400 euro, the TD201 starts at 450.

    Cheaper turntables than that has too cheap materials. One can’t make a great turntable for 299 euro. This isn’t possible. One can’t even make a good turntable for that low amount.
    But you blame Hanpin and Yan Horng when Teac, Audio-Technica and others orders Hanpin and Yang Horn to make really cheap turntables. Of course there will be compromises.

    I think the problem is that the customers demands too much of the cheapest turntables.
    There’s a market for the cheapest, there is a demand that’s why they are being made. The customers needs to be educated so they don’t request the cheapest ones.

    The Thorens TD124 DD and 1600/1601 shows the capabilities of Yan Horng. Excellent finish, excellent quality. The cheaper Thorens also has a standard of fit and finish that exceeds the cheaper models built by Fehrenbacher.

    The Thorens team has visited the factory in Taiwan several times to secure that the production meets Thorens high demands. They first did a small series of low volume and tested them and checked them and then scaled up production when they were satisfied with the quality. Günter Kurten has overseen the quality of production himself, he was there in person several times.

    The Teac TN-3B is a gorgeous looking turntable, an original Teac design with a SAEC designed tonearm.

    I say again - Hanpin and Yan Horng can make anything their clients asks them to.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  12. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    It looks modern and the design is functional.
    It rests on a 3-point suspension and this means a triangular shape, then there was a need to have a tonearm also so they added room for this on the right.
     
  13. Hardcore

    Hardcore Quartz Controlled

    Location:
    UK
    Having watched that video on setting up the 124DD I posted on the last page I really struggle to understand how they can justify charging £8000. If it was £2000 then fine, but at its heart is a very similar motor that you’d find on a OEM DJ deck such as a Reloop RP7000 or a Pioneer PLX1000. Any DJ will tell you that as Taiwan has been making them for well over 20 years now, it’s a clone of the old Technics design. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but you’ll find a more advanced motor design in a Technics 1200GR for £1100.

    [​IMG]

    Once I saw that I couldn’t understand the price, it seems to come with a lot of superfluous stuff like gloves and certificates to try and justify it. Look at how he sets up the arm and it’s almost a gram out, that is not what I would call precision equipment.


    Each to their own of course.
     
  14. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Man, you need help. Where did I say that he didn't bought the Thorens/sold the Transrotor? I accept that fact, but I question the motive behind the praise/brag of it, as there is clear affiliation - the designer Fuchs works for the "praiser" Fink. You are naive if you think this is not part of the PR.
    Again, seek some help. I never said I don't believe that the production unit has the problems corrected. Quite the opposite, you can see that in the first post of mine you quoted:
    Question is to which standard was the so called pre-production unit made and why? I think that's the usual Taiwanese offering that can be modified on request, which Thorens did. That's the fact YOU can't accept, which I repeated several times: Hanpin/Yahorng are known for compromised products, probably are capable of better under tight control, but their bad image won't change overnight and the customers won't easily accept them as quality. Again good luck to Thorens and Dual with that task in front of them.
    None of this gives reason to like the Taiwanese Dual/Thorens. It's business, not charity. It's their problem how they'll make profit. If they want sufficient margin, I, as customer, want to see the original design cues, not what I see on cheap dj decks. Not possible? Bye, Technics is waiting for my money.
    You couldn't have corrected me upon anything because everything I said was true and correct (except that new information about Fehrenbacher Dual license, which is not sufficient for your offensive personal qualification). Show me what disinformation I presented. You get triggered if someone tells you the truth that Thorens and Taiwan are not well received combination for reason, fall into a trance-like condition and start to repeat things as a broken record in their defense, like you have some affiliation. Do you? It is you who can not accept facts:
    -Taiwanese are not know for quality and they have yet to prove their capability for the opposite. Fact!

    Where do you see that I refuse the facts? I can accept the readings can be different depending on equipment and standard, but they still have to give a sufficient idea how stable is the turntable speed. So they must mean something, otherwise it's lying. Now suddenly, after Dual/Thorens moved to Taiwan, the country of high wow and flutter turntables, a Thorens owner tells us here that it's a figure that means nothing unless you also buy a measuring equipment and that everyone's figures are kinda wrong except the Dual designer's. Also, the customers are to be blamed if they want to know that figure. The fact that there are numerous reports by pitch sensitive people that can sense the off-speed of a "0.1 or less W&F" table should be neglected. What they know, they are not engineers? Unbelievable.
    Another of yours triumphalist nonsense.Where do I refuse to accept this? I simply asked for clarification since the photo is different than your claim.
     
  15. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    Mein Gott! It's the Super OEM motor as seen in 20 times cheaper turntables! That's what I call a margin!
    [​IMG]
     
  16. RPM

    RPM Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easter Island
    And that is a COPY of a Technics original design. In my eyes, Thorens fell really low with this. Not the first such attempt, though. Denon did the same with their 100th Anniversary model. They even kept the ugly Hanpin dj tonearm design.[​IMG]
     
    Hardcore likes this.
  17. Hardcore

    Hardcore Quartz Controlled

    Location:
    UK
    I just looked that Denon up and it’s $1299. That’s not too bad, I think a GR would be a better choice but still it’s not too crazy. If we compare that to the 124DD, I don’t understand how the extra items, having seen them at close hand in the video could reasonably take the total over $1000 extra.
     
  18. justanotherhifienthusiast

    justanotherhifienthusiast Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Technics is also manufactured in Taiwan now.
     
  19. justanotherhifienthusiast

    justanotherhifienthusiast Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Wow $11,500 USD for this and it weighs 35lb. Who is the market for this? You can buy an amazing vintage Thorens if you wanted a thorens. It will look much better and sound and perform better then this. Also if one is seriously looking at buying a turntable in the 5 figures price tag they should be looking at made in USA or made in Germany like VPI.
     
  20. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    So you refuses to accept facts and that’s why you need help, not me. I repeat this again: Fink Audio was not involved in the engineering and designing of the TD124 DD. Karl-Heinz Fink earns no money on it, zero. Yes Walter Fuchs worked for Thorens on it, but not Fink.
    You claim that it’s all PR.
    Why are Fink bashing suspension turntables? Fuchs engineered the TD1600, this is a suspended turntable.
    It’s quite strange PR don’t you think?
    Fink bashed suspension designs on Thorens own FB page, claiming that they are too wobbly. Most of Thorens turntables are suspension designs.
    You have very strange ideas about PR when you call this PR.
    Fink told his own opinion. This is s fact.

    You wrote:
    ”I'm not buying the story that TD 402 Fremer disliked was a pre-production model for posing in front of the camera. ”

    So you don’t accepts the facts that the TD402 was a pre-production model.

    Neither the Duals or Thorens looks like DJ decks. So you have got that wrong too.

    That is not true and you know it.
    But don’t worry, I will contine to correct your desinformation.

    I do this constantly. Look above that quote from you and you will find that I correct your desinformation.

    No, I’m not triggered at all. And you are not telling the truth. You are spreading desinformation.

    - You refuse to accept that Fink gave his honest opinion. You call it a PR stunt when it was not.
    - You refuse to accept that the TD402 was a pre-production model.
    - You refuse to accept that w&f numbers in tech sheets are not comparable.
    - You refuse to accept that the new Dual turntables are designed by Alfred Langer, including the tonearms.

    No, I have said for years that w&f numbers in tech sheets are not comparable. It’s not “suddenly”. Many turntable makers does not publish them because they are useless.
    Thorens was among those under Heinz Rohrer as CEO, this was before they let Yan Hornq make turntables for them.

    No new turntable under Heinz Rohrer has w&f in the tech sheet. Neither the TD309, 350, 550 and so on. Because Heinz Rohrer felt it only confused the customer since the numbers are not comparable.

    And you still refuses to accept the facts that w&f numbers in tech sheet are not comparable.

    My point is that the numbers are not comparable and I have explained to you why several times already. You still refuses to accept the fact that they are not comparable.

    And you are mixing up speed stability and w&f, they are not the same thing.

    If you are sensitive, go and listen.
    I have alwaus said that one should listrn to a turntable instead of making decisions after tech sheets with numbers that can’t be compared because each turntable will give different results in different labs. You don’t accept the facts.

    In every post you make.

    You claimed that it looks like a Fehrenbacher.
    A dealer in Canada has released an image a bit too early, this is not an official image since it’s not officially released yet.
    [​IMG]
    Dual CS429 | Turntable - Black (PRE-ORDER ONLY )
     
  21. rischa

    rischa Where'd Dizzy go?

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Wow, this thread became a bummer.
     
    Drumaniac - R and brockgaw like this.
  22. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    It’s not the same as the Reloop and Pioneer.
    The Reloop and Pioneer uses a direct drive unit from Hanpin. Thorens uses a drive unit from Yan Horng, so it’s not the same drive.

    The drive is an excellent one, but the problem with direct drives is that they sound mechanical and cold.

    Walter Fuchs has solved this with his own genious motor control. This motor control gives the TR124 DD a smoother and more musical sound than any other direct drive on the market. It sounds like a high end belt driven.




    Any DJ will tell you that as Taiwan has been making them for well over 20 years now, it’s a clone of the old Technics design. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but you’ll find a more advanced motor design in a Technics 1200GR for £1100.

    Re: price. The plinth cost big money to make. The vibration control in the plinth cost money to make. The tonearm was designed in collaboration with EMT and this is a very costly tonearm to make. It uses a true rubin rod to the antiskating mechanism. And so on.
    The power supply is an advanced construction that is costly to make.

    It’s not a cheap turntable to produce.
    It has got rave reviews and awards.
    You don’t know how it sounds like since you haven’t listened to one.
     
  23. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    According to mr Langer there are only two types of direct drives, and those two types - or principles - are used by all that makes direct drives today.

    Thorens invented the direct drive 1928. Technics was inspired by Thorens.
     
  24. Hardcore

    Hardcore Quartz Controlled

    Location:
    UK
    Actually I tried to find some reviews from respected reviewers and really struggled.

    That is fundamentally the same motor as one from those turntables, which is in turn a copy of the Technics Mk2 motor. The direct drive you are referring to has nothing in common with it.

    What about the tonearm measuring a gram out of spec? I’m sure that wouldn’t be the case with an EMT.

    I don’t have a problem with the turntable, I just don’t feel it’s deserving of the price tag.
     
  25. Raphael Mabo

    Raphael Mabo Music nerd

    Location:
    Gnesta, Sweden
    Here are reviews from respected and highly acclaimed reviewers.
    Thorens TD124DD Review

    Test Plattenspieler Thorens TD 124 DD mit SPU 124: die Legende ist zurück - LowBeats

    Thorens TD 124 DD

    https://www.stereo.de/hifi-test/produkt/thorens-td-124-dd-1875

    You may believe it or not but the fact is that the tonearm was designed by Helmut Thiele in collaboration with EMT. It’s based upon the tonearm for the original TD124, but updated.

    It doesn’t sound at all like a Technics. It sounds like a Thorens should sound like. The magic is Walter Fuchs own motor control, it gives the TD124 a smoother, more airy and musical sound than the colder Technics.

    It is of course a matter of taste which one one prefers. But they don’t sound the same. They have different sonical character.
     

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