A NOS Thorens TD124

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 62vauxhall, Jun 12, 2019.

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  1. 62vauxhall

    62vauxhall Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I would like my obsession with turntables to end. I am attracted to vintage ones and have been focusing on changers. There have been some purges but inevitably the count starts rising.

    At the moment, there are six I'd like to hang on to but I'd like to get one vintage more or less "audiophile" turntable to stop me from continually looking for others.

    I know of a NOS Thorens TD-124 supposedly coming to the current owner (a vintage audio shop specializing in turntables) still in the box.

    I have begun considering this as a possibility and know it will be expensive but the question is how expensive. I casually asked the shop's owner what the price would be but he didn't even know as he's never had a TD124 in like condition before. It is not installed in a base but it has an SME arm of some kind mounted on it.

    I was wondering what those familiar with TD124's would consider paying for a NOS example equipped with an SME arm if one was encountered.

    I'm in Canada so would need to add 30% for currency exchange to and estimate in USD.
     
    Jelloalien likes this.
  2. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    What's your actual location? Canada's pretty big. ;)

    I have stuff I buy from the US shipped to a warehouse near the border. Every few months, I pick up my stash. I declare everything, have bills for everything, and pay "only" the tax on the converted amount. That eliminates bloated shipping fees and the arbitrary so-called duty fees.

    Using such a system would allow you to save what could be a sizable amount of money.
     
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  3. When I was chasing vintage pieces, I signed up for access to Audiogon's Blue book db for a couple of month's to track valuations. You should be able to drill down to the specific version of whatever TD-124 you're lusting after to establish baseline and trends.
     
  4. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Another option is to use eBay and use the "Sold Items" filter.

    Or navigate to www.hifishark.com and look at the Sold items tab.
     
  5. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    Personally I'm always very dubious about claims that an idler is NOS, from personal experience I've met people who packed them back into their boxes 40 or 50 years ago, but almost never met anyone who bought a high end component and never used it yet if you believe eBay listings a good 10% of people were doing just that, but only with high end expensive gear, funny that.

    The other thing is that even if it was put away unused 50 years ago it's definitely going to need going over by a competent tech now, so in many ways what you are paying for is a pristine paint job, me I'd prefer to pay less than half the money and get a less than perfect looking deck repainted, though there are plenty of nice looking used 124s as well.

    I have no idea on North American prices, but you've been given good advice above, try not to get carried away by the story and pay over the odds.
     
  6. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Even if NOS, it will require maintenance to get back to new performance, i.e. the oil in the main bearing, motor and stepped pulley would probably have long since dried up. The motor would probably also need a rebuild just on the fact that it's been sitting unused for many many years.
     
  7. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I kind of agree with what others are saying about the pros and cons of NOS. I wouldn't pay more for NOS. I'd suggest finding a used on in good cosmetic condition and select from one of the experts who can do a full refurbishment. You'll likely end up with something that costs less and performs better then the NOS one.
     
  8. 62vauxhall

    62vauxhall Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have looked at e-bay sold listings and the completed transactions I saw were ~$700 to mid $2K. My e-bay purchases have been minimal and I confine them to low ticket items. I don't trust e-bay vendors regardless of +feedback due to past experience.

    And I do maintain an account at a border town shipping depot for US purchases. I'm close enough that I can park and enter the US as a pedestrian then cross back on foot with my item(s). Canada Customs don't nail me with charges unless declared value is over what that particular Customs officer feels is fair that day.

    As mentioned, it's a shop that has the TD124. Vintage turntables are the specialty and are covered by a 12 month warranty. I frequently visit there and have noticed TD124's on display & for sale - ready for use. Prices I recall were $2500 to $3500. Owning one never crossed my mind on those occasions so I was never inclineded to obtain details.

    I've bought a couple of tables there and picked up used records fairly frequently. I've also sold/traded a variety of gear so I'm not exactly a stranger. I am confident that the TD124 in question will be at it's peak and without deficiency. I've watched the owner at work diagnosing customer's turntables brought in for repair (I was even conslted once or twice) and he is meticulous at what he does.

    But I am so far out of my knowledge zone with turntables beyond what I've considered within my budget that I am a bit lost. He could suggest $3500 or he could suggest $5000 and I wouldn't know what was reasonable and what was not.

    Being as that fellow opened his shop to make a profit I realize private sales can be cheaper. But should I make such a purchase I would not feel assured I was getting a known commodity from an online seller.

    A few months ago I purchased a Dual 1009 from someone claiming reconditioning was done at a shop. Even had a repair receipt. Taking that into account, the price was better than fair. After a few days of use, it got sluggish and tired. Kind of like a magic spell wearing off. So, I will now have to dive into it myself to put back to rights. The good deal became one I would have passed on.

    A pre-amp incident just came to mind. Supposedly gone through and recapped by a tech I knew. Said tech could not recall said pre-amp out of the many he'd had so I took the vendor at his word. He was a lying sack of ****. Nothing was touched inside and I had to replace some transistors just to make it turn on.

    At my age, a table in the thousands would be my last. Considering genealogy, I figure 10 years? If I wind up taking a plunge like a TD124, it would help to know what was rediculousl and what was not.

    Off topic but along the same lines. I was a regular service customer at a motorcycle shop specializing in British bikes. For the longest time they had an early Norton Commando in the showroom. It was a complete ground up restoration using NOS parts on hand accumulated during the shops history beginning in the 1950's.

    Price on the tag hanging from the Norton's bars - $20,000.

    Personally, I thought that was outrageous and so did others. It received numerous comments on a blog and the shop was ridiculed. Then one day the Norton was gone. Bought by a collector in California primarily because for all intents and purposes, it was a brand new bike.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    showtaper likes this.
  9. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    In the UK I think you would get a stunning 124 that hadn't been expensively serviced, but was 100% working without plinth or arm for £1,000 or 1700 Canadian Dollars, assuming greater scarcity in Canada then I'd say somewhere between 2,000 and 2500 Dollars would be a fair price and don't forget you need to budget for a good plinth and arm.

    The 124 can be a money pit, you could easily spend several thousand on parts and service so if it is working 100% perfectly then that may be worth an additional premium.

    I suggest you don't view the deck unless you are prepared to buy it, the 124 is so attractive that it will be hard to resist, I couldn't resist the one I bought.
     
    Don Parkhurst and HiFi Guy 008 like this.
  10. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Type this into Google Thorens TD124 site:canuckaudiomart.com

    It'll give you an idea of how much they go for in Canada. You can also do the same with usaudiomart.com if you wanted US prices. Keep in mind that some of those that sold will have a plinth whereas the NOS doesn't.

    If the NOS one is truly NOS, i.e. never been used, never out of the box and assembled, then it's likely there will be a premium for it.
     
    Jelloalien likes this.
  11. Vinyl Archaeologist

    Vinyl Archaeologist Forum Resident

    it is a relatively simple but precise machine. If the shop services it properly I think 2-3k is the going rate depending on arm and plinth. The nice thing about having it setup to use is that you can test it thoroughly. The devil is in the details. How quickly does it come to speed. With a test record, or ideally a dead quiet record with a silent lead in, what level is the rumble. As far as buying it packed in the box for a premium that wouldn't be what I would recommend,
     
    Dubmart likes this.
  12. 62vauxhall

    62vauxhall Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I am really grateful for the well expressed, non imperious responses. In this short time I feel I have some insight into the relationship of dollars & cents vs the mystique/charisma of Thorens TD124's ownership.

    I usually visit that shop once a week. The next time I go, I will let it be known I'm giving somewhat serious thought to becoming a TD-124 owner. I'd like to think that he knows me well enough to be forthcoming about whether or not a NOS example has any practical advantage. From conversations we've had he knows I am not rolling in dough and I believe he will be up front, on my side as it were, and steer me towards value for the money.

    I would be making my own base. Depending on size requirements, I may have something already built - one oak and one walnut. If not, I can fabricate one from 1.5" Sapele Wood.

    Having progressed from an aversion to Thorens to actually considering ownership, I kind of hope there won't be discussion of alternatives. I am prone to suggestibility and would likely nix the whole project if presented with choice. I have a lifelong habit of second guessing myself and not going with a first inclination. This has rarely if ever worked in my favour. A number of esoteric tables are on hand there so that possibility exists. The last time, I saw Mitchell's, Linn's and high end Luxman's to name three.

    But he does know I like idlers.

    Even though a TD124 is a a Thorens, I have always regarded it as being unto itself. I tossed around getting a Lenco last year but lost enthusiasm. I have never seen a Garrard 301 in the flesh so a TD124 ticks my boxes (which might not jive with other's) and is to a degree, obtainable.

    In that aforementioned short period of time, I seem to be selling myself more and more on this idea.

    A couple of days should tell the tale.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  13. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Yes, this likely needs as much or more repair/maintenance labor to become functional again as your typical well used example. Bear this in mind.
     
  14. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    That's exactly how I feel, I've owned half a dozen other models of Thorens and have a couple sat around at the moment, but the only one I've fallen in love with is the TD 124, just need to get mine sorted.
     
  15. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Just occurred to me...the vinylnirvana.com Thorens guy is a member here. I forget his username but he's easily found via a search in the Marketplace as he does posts links to his site. Might be worth reaching out to him and asking him his opinion on the NOS and what might need to be done/what you should look for.
     
  16. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I think he specializes in the belt drive models. I’ve never seen a word of the 124 on his site.
     
  17. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Ah did not know that. :)
     
  18. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    If there is an SME arm mounted, it is not NOS!!!! It was the dealers who mounted the arms on these, not the factory.
     
  19. 62vauxhall

    62vauxhall Forum Resident Thread Starter

    As far as I know, it was the shop's owner who installed the arm.

    I'll be going there tomorrow anyway to flip through any new records he might have gotten in and so long as he's not elbow deep in customers, will bend his ear a bit about things like the table's history and price. He was unsure about the latter when last we spoke,

    It's possible he may not even wish to sell it.

    If I were to commit to one, it is not of absolute importance for me to have a NOS example. I've seen TD-124's for sale there in the past so he does get them from time to time. I never paid them much attention because then, they did not interest me.

    And I'm fully aware that other, less expensive tables exist which can at least equal a TD124's performance and cost less. If you saw the tables I have now and enjoy using, you'd see that I am not a seeking the ultimate in sound quality kind of guy.

    So that's not my primary motivation.

    They've started to become appealing to me for what could arguably be called the wrong reasons. They are of a certain age and I like how they look. Might be somewhat of a gamble, but even if I did pay an inflated price now, I would not be surprised if "market price" caught up at some point in time.

    So maybe yes, an investment.

    And under that condition, NOS would not be practical as I would like to use it so therefore, it would not remain NOS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  20. Davey

    Davey NP: Hania Rani/Dobrawa Czocher ~ Inner Symphonies

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    You've probably seen the show pictures, but Thorens has a new TD 124 coming soon from Germany ... much the same look, but this time powered by a direct drive motor ... you can bet it will probably be pretty expensive too ...


    [​IMG]


    Thorens TD124DD with direct drive

    The Thorens TD124 is one of the absolute must-haves in the vintage / retro hi-fi scene. Today it is only available on eBay for prices between 2,000 and 3,000 euros. On Facebook there are own fan groups to TD124, even a book of its own (Joachim Bung, "Swiss precision") is dedicated to the model. Accordingly, the update, the Thorens TD124DD should be popular. Gunter Kürten has, according to the legend, even procured a copy of the TD124 on eBay and then have this model disassembled by the development team into all its parts. This was the basis for the new development of the Thorens TD124DD, which looks very similar to its big and famous brother. Since there were no more casting templates, the to be milled now. The tonearm (TP 124) and the MC pickup were also completely redeveloped. Another change compared to the "original" is the direct drive motor. Thorens experts, such as the aforementioned Joachim Bung or the developer legend Helmut Thiele were in the new development of the TD124DD godfather and Gunter Kürten along with team with advice and practical help. Nothing was left to chance here and hi-fi connoisseurs can look forward to a real record player treat... HIGH END 2019: Thorens stellt Neuauflage des Plattenspielers TD124 vor
     
  21. 62vauxhall

    62vauxhall Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I saw mention made of a Garrard 301 re-issue - $19,000 US.
     
  22. Dubmart

    Dubmart Senior Member

    Location:
    Bristol, England
    So far the SME Garrard 301s are restored originals with a nice arm and plinth, several forum members including myself have put together very similar 301 packages including an identical SME arm for a small fraction of the SME price. You didn't want mention of alternatives, but as you've brought Garrard into the thread in the UK at least you can still get a fully working cosmetically good 401 for a reasonable price often with a SME 3009, couple that with your woodworking skills to make a nice plinth and you will have a deck that rivals the 124 for under £1,000/1700 Canadian Dollars though the 124 will always be prettier.
     
    googlymoogly and McLover like this.
  23. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Just make sure you do not pay ‘NOS price ‘ for what, as far as can be determined, is not NOS.

    Also be aware that these tables are over 50 years old now, and will need attention from time to time. Spare parts can be pricey too. Are you willing and able to deal with that?

    I owned a lovely ‘61 TD-124 for several years and thoroughly enjoyed it, but ultimately decided that I didn’t want the burden and potentially high cost of maintaining it. Maybe my concerns were overblown but I moved on to something that I felt was a more practical choice.
     
  24. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    If this were my decision, I would go for the pristine condition TD-124 over most alternatives up to many thousands of dollars. I would expect the shop to have done the basics as far as cleaning and re-lubricating the table and checking the condition of the belt. The idler wheel on these tables almost never goes bad, so that is not an issue.

    I personally don't like the fact that the cast iron subplatter does cause the powerful magnets in MC cartridges to pull downward due to attraction. I would invest in a non-magnetic subplatter from Schoppers (supposedly much better sounding that the aluminum alternatives offered on the market). There are other companies that also offer after-market upgrade parts, including supposedly more quiet idler wheels, but, I've not heard these myself. I would also consider a different platter mat, but, that would be something to experiment with after the table has been in operation for some time and you are familiar with the sound.

    These tables deserve the very best tonearms, so I would not limit consideration to just those arms that are traditionally associated with the TD-124. In other words, I don't consider this table to be a "vintage" item; it is a high end model for someone looking for state of the art sound.

    Once it has be serviced, I don't see any reason to expect it to require more regular maintenance or expenditure than any other table. Almost all tables are totally free of maintenance/repair issues for a LONG time (except changing belts on belt-drive tables).
     
    Tullman likes this.
  25. Jimi Floyd

    Jimi Floyd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pisa, Italy
    If that NOS 124 is for sale and you don't want it, please let me have the seller's address and number.
     
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