Absolutely confused about HDCD, Steve, and AF... please help

Yes, that's what I tried to get across in my first post in this thread, that it's all in the mastering.

 

The main "feature" of HDCD is dynamic range compression/expansion. Without the decoder, you will hear a wrong, compressed version of the original. So for the 99% who don't have a decoder, it will not sound like it's supposed to.

However, as I mentioned in an earlier message, the features are under control of the mastering engineer. So it's possible to put the secret message in the LSB that says, "Look at me, I'm an HDCD!" without actually using the incompatible HDCD features.

 

I disagree. The HDCD white paper mentions that the HDCD code is used to tell the decoder which digital filter to use at any given moment. Different filters sound different because of their attack times, phase linearity, etc. I wouldn't call the dynamic range compression/expansio the "main" feature.

We'll just agree to disagree. I enjoy HDCD. You certainly do not have to.

 

This is very confusing...so if I do not have and HDCD player, am I better off seeking a non-HDCD version of a HDCD CD I already have, or just keep the HDCD version and move on???

 

I like all the HDCD CD's that I have...except a couple...I have though an HDCD capable Parasound CDP-2000, which is the smoothest CDP I heard to date,,on any CD.

 

I have an HDCD compatible CD player and a non-HDCD player.

I have some CDs that are HDCD encoded where I honestly cannot discern any difference in sound quality regardless of which player I use. (The aforementioned wretched sounding Cars disc comes to mind... but there are others.) I have other CDs where the sound quality is markedly different depending on which player is used. (The Stevie Nicks boxed set, for instance: not great when not decoded, better when decoded.) Then again, I really like my Grateful Dead HDCDs regardless of which player I choose. I suspect the tail wagging the dog is the mastering - not the encoding. Still, all in all, if the medium absolutely has to be redbook CD, I'd just prefer a well-mastered redbook CD - without HDCD in the equation. I've heard far too many superb sounding standard issue redbook CDs (DCC and otherwise) to be convinced that - as a medium - redbook needs HDCD encoding to shine. I just don't think it does.

Furthermore, regardless of mastering, I don't understand how you can have 'neutral' undecoded playback and 'more neutral' decoded playback... or whatever the marketing hype is about HDCD.

That said, I still think it all boils down to "Do you like the way this music sounds on this disc?" Regardless of the format... So, HDCD is not a deal-breaker for me on these AF discs or any others. It's just not a deal-maker, either.

Jamie

 

Resolution and neutrality aren't the same thing. LPs can be neutral, even cassettes can be neutral with enough tweaking. But as I understand it, HDCD is supposed to give you 4 more bits of true resolution. Steve's original problem was that undecoded HDCD playback wasn't neutral, it colored the sound in some respect. With that problem apparently taken care of, you will have regular CD quality sound when using a non-HDCD player and increased resolution when using an HDCD player. If I'm way off-base here, someone let me know.

 

This is really quite simple. Its just like dual layer SACD. If you have an SACD player, you enjoy the higher fidelity sound, if you dont have an SACD player, you have to live with Redbook playback.

If you have an HDCD player, you enjoy the higher fidelity sound, if you don't have an HDCD player, you have to live with Redbook playback.


Actually, most HDCD's that I have heard, sound excellent! Like Natalie Merchants albums, they sound wondeful! Also, the new Vanguard re release of the English Chamber Orchestra playing Bach's Brandenburg Concertos. It is a hybrid SACD, and the CD layer is HDCD. The SACD layer of course, sounds the best, but when I listen to it on my fathers HDCD player, it sounds very good. Not as good as SACD, but much better than redbook.

 

The point is that in the case of HDCD the LSB of the 16-bit words has been encoded with data for the HDCD processor. This is the reason some people have concerns with HDCD - the question on my mind is can you use the LSB in this way and still maintain the integrity of the analogue signal on D/A conversion?

I'd like to hear two CDs played back on a non-HDCD player where the only difference is that on one disc the LSB has been encoded for HDCD and the other disc it has not. Then I'd like to compare the HDCD encoded disc with the non-HDCD encoded disc on an HDCD capable machine to see if the difference in resolution comes without any audible compromises.

In the absence of this opportunity I can only listen to HDCD encoded discs on my non-HDCD player and decide whether they sound good to me or not. Even if I like what I hear I will never know if they may have sounded even better on my player had they not been HDCD encoded......

 

I don't think it's like SACD playback - at all. I feel with hybrid SACD you get the best CD version and the best SACD version. I think that when you get an HDCD, you get a "crippled" CD version and the best HDCD one... that's just me, and I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

 

Hi Javier,

Buy the Pizza Tape cd that i recommended earlier in this thread and you will!

Take care,
Jeffrey

 

So what? It´s like saying that someone doesn´t like SACD because is a Sony technology and "he" doesn´t want to have something "Sony made" except for his car radio and cd-changer.
Apples and oranges Javier. So what if Microsoft owns HDCD?

 

I'll definitely look for it. Thanks!

 

Still trying to get an answer to this question. I have a few Cars CD's (2nd and third) and 4 Joni Mitchell CD's that are HDCD. Should I get rid of these and find earlier non-HDCD versions? Or is their no sound quality difference between an older non-HDCD version and me playing one of these HDCD doscs on my non-HDCD CD player???

 

Another way to ask my question. For those of you who do not have HDCD playback...do you purposely avoid buying HDCD's???

 

It's kinda like the comparison to SACD that somebody else mentioned earlier in the thread comparing playing a hybrid SACD in a normal cd player...if you play a HDCD in a player without a decoder you're going to be hearing the 'normal' version. If you stick that same HDCD in a player with an HDCD decoder you'll now be hearing the benefits of the HDCD process. You're not listening to a 'crippled' version playing a HDCD in a non-HDCD player, that's why the designed the process the way they did. Theoretically, if you mastered two discs (one HDCD and one non-HDCD) and played both of them in a non-HDCD player, they should sound identical. It's only when you play the HDCD encoded disc in a HDCD player that you hear the benefits of the process.

If there's a difference in sound it would be because of the mastering, not because you're playing a HDCD in a player without a HDCD decoder.

 

Sorry, but this is very wrong. Read http://www.hdcd.com/partners/proaudio/GainScale.pdf

 

Whether it's wrong or not seems to depend mostly on whether the "Peak Extend" option is used. A peak-extended recording that has peaks over the 0dB level will be, er, peak-limited when played back undecoded.

 

I certainly try to avoid buying HDCD discs.

 

Lots of confusion here.

First, the HDCD codes are simply a very occasional burst of code mixed into the dither. The 16'th bit is NOT compromised and many people consider the the Pacific Microsonics dithering to be absolutely the best sounding available. Would it sound better without a code burst every few seconds? Hard to say but the PM developers tell me they worked very hard to make it so THEY couldn't hear any difference and they are among the pickiest listeners I've ever known.

Second, the compression and peak limiting can each be turned off. If they are left on, HDCD players will restore the original dynamics while non-HDCD players will retain the compression and limiting with results comparable to what many mastering engineers would apply.

Third, HDCD employs program-controlled dynamic anti alias filters that have been chosen for optimal sonic performance with the most common fixed reconstruction filters. This is why it can sound better than using ordinary fixed anti alias filtering. An HDCD player employs dynamic reconstruction filters that are triggered by the code bursts to be optimized to the anti alias filter used for that portion of the recording. This is how HDCD playback claims to be even better.

 

Bob,
Thanks for the excellent explanation. I tried to explain HDCD a few different times and was unable to be as eloquent as you.