Add a subwoofer or get "full range" speakers? Performance and cost considerations.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by snorker, Sep 21, 2016.

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  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    with rel, and other powered subwoofer, the high level input is totally transparent for the speaker amp.
     
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  2. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I've never used the high level speaker connections of any of the subs in my system. Always used the line in input from the sub output of AVR or prepro. To use the high level speaker input does one run speaker cables from the speaker jacks of the R&L front speakers to the sub? Probably a stupid question but I've never done it.
     
  3. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    It looks like the S/5 uses both the high-level input, and the line-in for LFE. Is that right?
     
  4. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    As long as you are shopping, you can get any configuration you need. Find one that fits your needs.

    I was looking for a way to connect two channel without using external bass management or high level inputs that may affect the sound from the mains. Mine is connected with XLR line outs getting a full range signal while using analog direct mode, plus a sub out connection for AVR bass management functions. You might end up with something similar using sub out and high level connections but check with the manufacturer to find out how it will work. In my case, Rythmik, the line level inputs are summed. This is only an issue for me when watching movies where both the full range line outs and the sub out are feeding the sub. I don't mind the little extra bass boost in movies so it works for me.
     
  5. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Yes, you do just that. Or run cables from speakers B terminals to the sub if you have an extra set of terminals on it. I'd stay with your current connections if I were you, unless your amp's dynamics can match or surpass those on your sub. Your signal has the dynamics of the source, the amp is limited to the dynamics it can deliver after amplifying the signal.
     
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  6. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Thanks! I'm definitely staying with using the line in as I have two subs with excellent amps. Plus there's only two RCA cables and using Dirac would probably be difficult using speaker connections.
     
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  7. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Interesting, I also have same d110. Unfortunately, it can't go loud enough without vibrating too much. What is the typical sound level you listen to?

    I was trying to do bass sweep test at 90 db, it definitely not doing well below 40 Hz. Too much vibrations and internal noise.

    I ended up doing the cheap route and use two 12" JL Audio car sub (12 w3v3-4) in two big closed enclosure located in two corners + external amp. Now those handled 100 db just fine. : )

    My d110 is now sitting in my bedroom unused. : (

    Obviously I vote for separate subwoofers.
     
  8. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    yes. be sure you need the s5. the S2 is already very powerful. also, it seems a bit counterproductive to buy a 2500$ sub and mate with 500$ speakers...
    depends on the sub. rel high level input is quite unique in that it uses neutrik connection. most sub you have to wire the speaker amp output to the high level input of the sub then to speakers iirc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  9. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    If you do that the sub's FIXED internal crossover will send frequencies above the its operating range to the mains and allow it to take care of the rest (absolutely not advisable unless you have the tiniest of bookshelves as your mains. The sub's crossover will be BYPASSED.

    But you can still connect the mains to your stereo amp and ignore the outputs on your sub. In that way, you'll be operating your mains full-range and will be able to control the crossover on the sub to take care of the range you want instead.
     
  10. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    it depends on the design of the subwoofer. I really just know REL's.
     
  11. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Speaker amp outputs on powered subs work the way I described. Maybe you got that notion mixed up with passive subs. Rel are fantastic subs; wished I owned one. In the meantime, my old JBL SUB 12 will have to do. It has outputs and works with or without speakers connected to them just the way I described on my previous post.
     
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  12. ashulman

    ashulman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Utica, NY
    I added a nice sub to my Martin Logans which are rated down to 42hz. I use room eq wizard to measure frequency response in my room. Using this with a sub that gives you the option of shaping the response curve somewhat will help you dial in a good level and crossover. It definitely filled out the sound to me and obviously dug deeper. There are some recordings where that extra oomph in the 20-40 range is a big plus. Also, could it be relieving some strain from my main speakers thus improving the overall sound? Could be. My only caution would be to get a really decent sub that has some flexibility and goes down to around 20hz or lower
     
  13. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    Right, but I plan to upgrade the main speakers as well, so I figure one less thing to upgrade if I go for the S/5 now. I'm considering the Harbeth SL5 Plus.
     
  14. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I don't think you are limited by the main amplifier's dynamics. It connects with a high impedance, low load signal to the sub's amplifier. It really does sound the best in every way including dynamics and slam.
     
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  15. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Thank you.
    BTW the 40.2's seem to not need a subwoofer although they will require lots of power. I have hear them many times and they have plenty of deep, low bass. A little too tubby at times unfortunately.
     
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  16. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Ok; I'll take your word on that. What's the theory behind that statement if you happen to be familiar with it ? My amp has 80wpc but not much in terms of headroom, so I thought if I could feed the sub signal level, the dynamics of the signal would be made more justice. Is that a wrong assumption ?
     
  17. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Yes, you run the subwoofer speaker cables in parallel with the main speaker terminals. On my amp I use spade terminals for the subwoofer and bananna plugs for the main speakers. It sounds better and more seamless. It uses a high impedance load that siphons off a very small amount of current. After trying each way it sounds deeper, more seamless and more dynamic than the RCA connections. Especially with a tube amplifier.
     
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  18. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Because the input impedance is ~150,00 ohms! In other words using the basic ohm's law current= voltage / resistance, your peak current is going to be minute.
     
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  19. bluesky

    bluesky Senior Member

    Location:
    south florida, usa
    Absolutely get "full range" speakers... absolutely.

    With minimum 12 inch woofers. 12 inch sounds fine - good size.
     
  20. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Interesting, I listen occasionally at 90db and have never heard any vibration coming from the enclosure. No vibration or other cues that would localize it and my response is flat from 20Hz at the listening position.
    It isn't an SPL thunder pumper like a ported mobile sub but it is more than enough for my needs and I like loud and dynamic.
    You should send yours to JL for warranty work. What size room?
     
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  21. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    seriously look at the fathom f113 then, i heard one in my dealer's "high end" room on many occasions playing with some joseph audio speakers and it was really impressive. not sure how to describe the sound- lots of low frequency pressure, subtle, extremely deep, powerful and no peakiness or hardness. deep sustaining notes that did not falter or weaken.
     
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  22. murphythecat

    murphythecat https://www.last.fm/user/murphythecat

    Location:
    Canada
    are you sure harbeth shl5+ need a sub? with room gain, wouldnt be surprised you could have at least-6db at 30hz.
    shl5+ measurements - Google Search »

    id wait to get the speakers in my room and see then if you need a sub. I doubt youll need one. Great speaker btw!!!!!
     
  23. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Hi avanti1960, I do not wish to derail this thread. Would you please compare notes with me in JL Audio dominion d110 discussion » Thanks!
     
  24. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    Hmmm.....You raise an interesting point. The 40.2s are twice as much as the Super HL5, and I figured the smaller speakers would need a sub, particularly with the MC275 and 75 watts per channel. But maybe they don't need it. On the other hand, there are many that will say even full range speakers benefit from a sub. The Super HL5 and a REL S/5 combined are still less than the 40.2's.
     
  25. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy Thread Starter

    Interesting. The 40.2s are definitely more than I wanted to spend, but it's tempting...but it also seems like my amp won't be enough for them. I'd probably need two MC275 amps in mono to do it properly. Or am I underestimating the amp?
     
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