Add a subwoofer or get "full range" speakers? Performance and cost considerations.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by snorker, Sep 21, 2016.

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  1. Ilusndweller

    Ilusndweller S.H.M.F.=>Reely kewl.

    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Ive been mostly a sub or dual sub person for the past 23-24 years. My two "exceptions" (as neither go much below 35-40 Hz) being Advent Heritage and Sony SS-TL3. Just recently (2 weeks ago) I hooked up some full range Carver Amazing Silver, flat to 20 Hz with adjustable knob on back. While these speakers are a huge step up over my previous speakers/dual sub setup (now in my bedroom), I do not feel like one way is superior to the other and I was always able to make my sub or subs disappear in my 2.1 or 2.2 system. They are both equally as good playback methods to me. The one thing I really like about my 2.2 system is independent remote volume control of both subs. For 2.2 (or 2.1) I use a mid 90s B&K 5.1 pre that can be found for pennies on the dollar. I am always on the lookout for another as I want one with balanced ins/outs, plus the spring in my "self-centering volume knob" broke so I must control volume with remote. So shhhh! :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  2. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    Hey all, I'll be configuring a system soon and would love the input of the participants in this thread.

    First question, if I add a sub (or dual subs) to 2-way monitors, optimal "dialing-in" etc aside, does this automatically make them full range?

    I ask because the speaker company I use refers to a dedicated mid-range drive in their tower speakers, but all others in the towers and 2-ways as just "woofers". I guess I'm trying to clarify if drives have to be dedicated to mid-range to actually properly produce mid-range or if "mid-range" can/would just be any woofer that isn't the tweeter or sub.

    (For specificity's sake I'm referring to Ascend's tower speakers, and their 2EX series monitors. Also note that the all woofers, mid-range or otherwise, in the tower are 5.25" and the woofer in the 2EX monitors are 6").
     
  3. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    You're another in my situation regarding having a vintage sub, correct? I had previously been using Polks subs because they were the only ones with speaker out connects so I could get some bass-management. Alternately I had a cheap-o AVR, but that allowed me to easily/digitally send the highs and mids to the monitors and the lows to the sub.
     
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  4. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    I guess I should add that I'll always have at least one sub for 5.1 HT. The trickiness for me is the amps I use many time have no bass-management and I can't stand the sound of 2-ways monitors without bass-management. Too congested for me. So I'm juggling all of those variables when dealing with my past and future systems.

    At present I'm thinking (don't cringe) of getting skinny towers with one Polk sub which will allow me via the speaker-out terminals to both incorporate my vintage amp (and getting a bass-management option) and an AVR for music listening and movie watching without having to swap anything out.

    Second option is to get those monitors and use a polk sub for bass management if that successfully allows for bass-management and be a genuine full-range option. This option will be about 1k less than the tower + sub option.

    I am looking how I can do this using Rythmik subs but it seems the only possible way might be to dual-sub it since there are only 1 set of line-outs on each Rythmik sub. That is the goal but in the meantime I'll probably have to do with the Polk despite the obvious draw-backs.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  5. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Despite the obvious drawbacks, Polk subs aren't actually bad subs for the price.

    When you can pick them up at one of their half price sales, they are an excellent value.
     
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  6. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    The speaker-out terminals are mandatory for me. I do know that integrating the cheaper line of Polk subs is not the easiest, but like I said, I gotta have some form of bass management for my vintage amp and the other good thing is that each of the Polk subs have two sets of speaker-out terminals, so you can manage both monitors via a single sub if needed. Not optimal if money is no object but it saves the day on a budget and like you said, doesn't sound too shabby.
     
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  7. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I started out my stereo system back in 2011 with a $400 pair of Polk Monitor 70 Series II tower speakers for HT and stereo. I ended up with their 100 pound LSiM towers, which retailed for ten times the price.

    Early on, the first sub on the system was bought for HT. It was a Polk PSW505 12" 300-Watt subwoofer that could play down to 28-Hz. At its -3 dB. Point. It cost all of $225 and could shake the rear window. It has, like most Polk subs had, both line and speaker level inputs.

    Since then, I have had many speakers in the room and many subs too, including Polk's largest home sub. I have no issues with Polk subs for the value that they represent.
     
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  8. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    Yes sir. The sub is not vintage; when I bought in '07 it most subs were still manufactured with both hi and line level inputs. But my receiver is a vintage unit. But even if it had digital bass management, I'd still use my mains full-range.
     
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  9. SeaTac

    SeaTac Active Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I’ve run 2.1 or 2.2 systems for decades and just finished putting a second system together over the last 30 days. I’ve always used passive subs and some type of bass management.

    System one is in my bonus room where I use a high-end DIY system designed by George Short of North Creek Music. His Vision Signatures are a floor standing MTM design using Scan-Speak Revelator drivers. I also use a pair of DIY subwoofers, an NCM 18” Leviathan in a 4 cubic foot sealed enclosure and an Aurasound 12” NS12-794-4A in a 2 cubic foot sealed enclosure.

    This is the set up I’ve used for decades and it still sounds fantastic. I use a Bryston 10B-Sub electronic crossover that enables seamless integration between the mains and the subwoofer. It does not have any room correction but I could add that if I felt I needed it.

    The second system I just added in my Family room uses Dynaudio Contour 20 monitors and a pair of DIY subwoofers I built using the Scan-Speak Revelator 13" Subwoofer - 32W/4878T in 1 cubic foot sealed enclosures.

    To integrate the system, I also added an Anthem STR Preamp that had nice reviews about its bass management, that is available in a number of preamps, but also has Anthem Room Correction that is not common in 2 channel systems. Since this is our family room where my wife has veto power I wanted to keep the mains and subwoofer footprints as small as possible and didn’t have as much flexibility on where to place them. The sub integration and ARC is working very well and I can use its Home Theater Bypass when watching movies and TV’s with a Denon AVR.

    I’m pretty sure I would use subwoofers even if I had full range mains. For systems without bass management or room correction, there is a large happy number of people using a miniDSP that starts as low as $95.00.
     
  10. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    Sorry, I meant 'vintage amp'.
     
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  11. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    I think I've decided (in a few months when I can actually get this rig together) to go with the monitors and dual subs. I'll probably just place each sub under each monitor, run the amp into the speaker-in terminals of the Polk subs and then out to the monitors. That should handle some bass management and facilitate "full-range" (unless I'm mistaken somehow).

    Cost was one factor in this decision; the other is that I feel like maybe Ascend might upgrade their tower line relatively soon (I'm just guessing here. No inside baseball), so I'd rather wait it out and save 1k in the meantime.
     
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  12. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    You would need to check the owners manual of your Polk subs to see if there is any bass management involved or not.

    More often than not, the speaker in and speaker out are just parallel connectors which allow you to run a cable from your amp to your sub and then on to your speakers.

    This is just done as a convenient way to facilitate your connection to the sub using speaker level connections.

    If your sub is wired this way, the speaker connections do not go through the crossover in the sub.

    As The Pinhead commented:

    It is generally not a good idea to use bass management to reduce the lower frequency range of your main speakers.

    It is best to allow them to run full range and allow the sub to come in to augment any bass deficiencies in the mains.

    This way you are using your mains the way they were intended to be used.
     
  13. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    I definitely would try out the monitors as intended. They would be new (my past speakers were Ascend Sierra 1s, these would be the 2EX series, so "two steps" up. But I dunno... I really liked the way my AVR split the sound sending the highs and mids to my monitors and the low end to my sub. I played music both ways (also allowing the speakers to run full range) and I didn't like it as much when the monitors were going full range. As I said above, it was too congested for me, and if the subs weren't dialed in nicely it was just a mess.

    The obvious thing to do here is just get full-range floor standers but that's an extra 1k I don't have. Before I make any decisions I'll def have a conversation with Dave F over at Ascend Acoustics.

    Since one of tubes died in my amp (Fisher X-200) I haven't been able to play around with possibilities with bass management for it.

    (But honestly I think you just talked me into trying to get the floor-standers with a sub).
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  14. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    What is the best way to calculate or find one's subwoofer delay if it is not specified in the manual?
     
  15. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    If it is not specified in the manual and it usually is not, it is because there is no sub woofer delay.
     
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  16. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I really like Ascend Acoustics products, I would buy them myself.

    I like the early 60's vintage tube stuff. I have a Fisher 500C receiver and a couple of Scott integrated amps.

    I really like the sound of the lower powered Scott and Fisher EL84 tube family of integrated amps better than their higher powered amps and receivers.

    Running my Altec A7's and vintage late 60's Wharfedale speakers off of them is sublime.

    You really can't buy modern amps for the value that these early 60's integrated amps cost.

    There is just something nice about the low power vintage sound.

    Seriously, while you don't necessarily need a sub with most floor standing speakers, they do much better with subs.

    While it becomes obvious what a sub will for music like Dubstep.

    It becomes less obvious when listening to music like Jazz. But, if you mute the sub, the room instantly depressurizes.

    Subs with towers can add a fullness to the sound in the room that you are not even aware of, until you take it away.

    Back in 2016 I posted a video, which is on page 3 of this thread.

    It is a Dubstep version of an original song by artist Lindsey Sterling.

    The song uses deep synth bass and sub-bass. You can listen to it through your main towers and then again with the dub in the system.

    I use this track to demo my system to people. I play a couple of other "normal" songs first.

    Then I play Crystallize. I then stop and explain that I am going to replay this last song again, with the 1,600 Watt sub on.

    At this point, they become aware of what a real dub can do. Because Lindsey plays the violin, you can really tell when the sub-bass kicks in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  17. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Ok, so I guess the delay caused by an additional class d amp in an active sub is inaudible ? like the delay when you add a stereo amp to an avr setup to drive your front speaker...
     
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  18. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Yes, connections between gear are not considered delays. Electricity being carried on the wires is traveling at 2/3 the speed of light.
     
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  19. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    So the delay should only be configured based on the distance between the sub and the main speakers from the listening position, right ?
     
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  20. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    You also need to account for delay of the sub's amp.
     
  21. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Yes, that is correct. When you set up a home theater system you can calibrate the speakers so that they have equal volume and adjust the time delay on each channel/speaker do that they all arrive at the main listening position at the same time.

    But you need an AV Receiver or HT Processor to be able to adjust the time delay and individual volume for each speaker in a 5.1 or however many channels in your HT/Stereo set up.

    If you just have something like an integrated amp and a sub, usually you would not have any time delay adjustments available to you.

    Because of the long wavelenths at low subwoofer frequencies, it is not that important with a sub in an average room.

    F.Y.I. Sound travels about one foot every milli-second.

    As you get down to lower frequencies and the wavelengths get longer, the human ear is less able to localize the sound.

    At 80-Hz. you can usually tell where the sub is at in your room. But as you go lower and get around 60-Hz. It becomes much more difficult.

    By the time you reach 40-Hz. The wavelength is so long that you csn not tell where the sub is.

    I route both HT and stereo through the home theater processor and out the LFE channel to the Crown Power amp and then to the large 15" horn loaded passive commercial sub.

    The Crown amp runs in bridged mono mode and delivers 1,600 Watts to the sub. The high sensitivity sub can deliver 133 dB. of continuous program material.

    You can be sitting on the sofa, with the sub 10' in front of you and you cannot tell where the sound is coming from. Even if you were to walk over to the sub and stand directly in front of the cabinet.

    The bass still appears to be coming from everywhere in the room.

    Most home subs do have a phase control knob or switch. Sometimes you can use it and it makes a difference and other times it does not.
     
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  22. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Ok, I have a lyngdorf tdai-2170, I think I will let the Roomperfect system do it all for me
     
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  23. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    The best thing to do is to give it a try. In audio, I find that most things are experimental.

    I don't use automated calibrations myself, preferring to control all of my settings by hand, which makes me more familiar with my gear and how I set it up. Though I am not suggesting that it is a better way, its just my preferred way.

    Many systems allow you to measure and input the distance between each speaker and your main listening point and enter it in feet (here in the U.S.). The system then makes the appropriate delay adjustments.

    These adjustments are setting the calibrations for one theoretical point in space. Meaning it will get you in the ballpark.

    I have two sofas in the living room, so more people can be here and enjoy HT and stereo. Obviously, we all can not sit at the point in the center.

    But, like any other space occupied by several people, the sound is a bit different at every point, but at the end of the day, it all works out fine.
     
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  24. AlmanacZinger

    AlmanacZinger Zingin'

    Location:
    The Land of Zaat
    So regarding bass-managment on Ascend 2-way monitors, looks like I got my answer via an exchange between an Ascend user and Dave F himself via Ascend's own forums (exchange is from 2017):

    User:
    Linn Sondek LP12 (30+ years old, many upgrades)
    Custom Bottlehead Eros phono pre
    Rega Apollo-R
    Rega DAC-R
    Schiit Saga preamp
    DAL 3886 amplifier
    Rythmik L12 sub

    I realize this is the picture thread, but if anyone is willing to share information with me regarding setting a low-pass crossover on the Sierra-2 to take the low-frequency load off of them, I'd appreciate it. I plan to upgrade the subwoofer (perhaps going to a pair of F8) but am wondering about the Harrison Labs Fmods so that the monitors don't have to struggle with that last octave when I'm listening to organ music. Thanks!

    Dave F:
    Wow - now that is a serious listening space, reminds me of the old "is it live or is it memorex ads"

    Filtering out the deep bass from the Sierra-2 means setting a high pass filter. I know, the terminology can be confusing. High pass filter means -- you are letting the highs pass through.

    80Hz would be the recommend filter setting and the Fmods should work well for you.

    ***

    Some years ago I talked to Dave about doing the same thing with my Sierra 1s and he recommended something similar (the trickiness came from the type of sub I was using). I should note that he never tried to talk me out of it. He was supportive of my tastes (trying to ease the congestion of 2-ways), so I never got the sense that Ascend had problems with trying to manage the sound of their 2-ways. But I should also say that at the top of our discussion he said, "If you get full-range you won't have to worry about any of this." (Referring to bass management of my vintage amp and dealing with my precieved "congestion" of 2-way monitors).

    Finally I must emphasize their 2-ways sound great as is and I'm sure the two (three, actually) models of 2-ways they've released since I had mine must be glorious.

    EDIT: Someone on these forums suggested the Harrison Fmods to me also.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  25. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    The Sierra Ascends bookshelf speakers have their -3 dB. point at 40-Hz., about the same as an average tower speaker.

    This is a 10-Hz. lower than most other good bookshelf speakers which measure in at 50-Hz.

    Very average priced bookshelf speakers go down to 60-Hz.

    And, those little expensive sealed BBC type monitors play down to 70-Hz. at their -3 dB. point.
     
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