Add Dual 1218/1219/1229 as additional table?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by sunvalleylaw, Jan 14, 2022.

  1. Lenny99

    Lenny99 The truth sets you free.

    Location:
    Clarksburg WV
    I don't want to get to far off topic, but ,"idler driven?" Does that refer to a small rubber wheel that is turned by the motor and rest in the inside of the platter.

    I had read those were generally associated with more economic tables. That they may wear quick and uneven.

    I'm simply curious.
     
  2. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hailey, ID
    Oh, and one other thought from my friend in Boise. I could ultimately sell my Technics SL-1600 and get a Thorens or similar belt drive, and then have one idler, one DD (my Kenny) and one belt drive. I will make that decision some other day, as I don’t have to sell the Technics, and it is a nice example and back up.
     
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  3. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    That's them. They were a thing in the sixties and early seventies but faded out as DD and Belt became the norms. They were found in Duals, which I suppose were considered, "consumer" tables so economic might be applied if you are talking from an audiophile perspective. But they were good quality tables for average consumers. I don't think they were used as a cost saver. Many believed the advantage to them to be more accurate than belt and quieter than direct. The rubber wheels after 50+ seem to have held up well in my observation. I just apply a little rubber restore to them when I get one. I've never observed a wheel that appeared worn out or uneven. I believe one of the benefits to the idler drive TT is that the wheel combined with the heavy platter make for a very accurate rotation. But I'm not an expert on the engineering of TTs so others can speak with more authority then me. I just mess around with them. I believe other higher end manufacturers used the idler system as well, Thorens maybe?
     
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  4. Lenny99

    Lenny99 The truth sets you free.

    Location:
    Clarksburg WV
    Thanks.
     
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  5. rl1856

    rl1856 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SC
    DUAL Idler drive TT are durable and somewhat overbuilt. Their mechanisms appear complex, but work remarkably well once correctly adjusted. They mate well with a variety of MM cartridges. They can be made to sound fine. However, it is easy to achieve better sound for about the same total cost of purchased DUAL and full rebuild. I owned a 1229Q and a 721Q. The former took me from high school, through college and into young adulthood. It was finally replaced with a 721Q. Then I fell into a deal for a Thorens TD318, which I accepted. From the first listen, I could hear that the Thorens was much better- blacker background, deeper bass, cleaner midrange and treble. At this point, the attraction of a classic DUAL is as much about nostalgia as it is about utility. It looks great paired with a vintage SS receiver, and a pr of Advent/JBL etc speakers ! And for many, that is exactly what they are looking for.
     
  6. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    What new $775 retail turntables sound better?
     
  7. rischa

    rischa Devout Irreverent

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    It seems like Duals are the hot new vintage table lately. I had the Dual itch this summer and bought a 1229 from FixMyDual. It's a very cool table and sounds good. I described it in a different thread as a cuckoo clock that's been modified to play records, lol. At least that's what the sound and operation of the auto-features remind me of.

    If you get a 1229 or other Dual with the same tonearm, I can reccomend the AT VM540ML as a good match. It's one of the few high compliance carts our there, which is best for the low-mass 12 tonearm.
    It seems like Duals are the hot new vintage table lately. I had the Dual itch myself this summer and bought a 1229 from FixMyDual. It's a very cool table and sounds good. I described it in a different thread as a cuckoo clock that's been modified to play records, lol. At least that's what the sound and operation of the auto-features remind me of. I can't compare it to your other tables, but the idler drive gives music lots of dynamic slam and fast bass, even perhaps a bit too much of a good thing.

    If you get a 1229 or other Dual with the same tonearm, I can reccomend the AT VM540ML as a good match. It's one of the few high compliance carts our there, which is best for the low-mass 1229 tonearm.
     
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  8. captouch

    captouch Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Inspired by this thread, I've been playing my 1229 too the last few days. Running a Shure V15 III w/original stylus. Sounds very nice.

    Dual tables are the ones (not sure if this holds for every model though) where they used to show it playing on an incline, right? I guess to show tracking stability or something
     
  9. rischa

    rischa Devout Irreverent

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Something went terribly wrong with that post. Damn forum gremlins.
     
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  10. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Not surprising, since they were built in the same area of the Black Forest. Where they made cuckoo clocks...
     
  11. jth496

    jth496 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Pacifica CA
    I have two Dual 1229 decks that are (I think) in good working condition, but not used for a long time. If there is anyone in the S.F. bay area who wants them, they're yours, free.

    jth496@icloud.com
     
  12. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hailey, ID
    I like that. Feels very SteamPunk. Even though the SteamPunk parts are mostly under the hood.
     
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  13. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hailey, ID
    Wow!!

    Not in the Bay Area, but wow!!

    Email sent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  14. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Yeah, and when you look underneath, you realize nobody except a clock maker would have come up with that mechanism.
     
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  15. Angry_Panda

    Angry_Panda Pipe as shown, slippers not pictured

    The reason they're called 'Dual' is because the original models (from the late 1920's) had both electric and mechanical (wind up) drive, so it shouldn't really surprise anyone that these are 'a bit complicated' under the hood.
     
  16. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hailey, ID
     
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  17. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    I was cussing that clock maker out when I was working on mine. I kept hearing those German engineers saying, "let's make this as complicated as we can."
     
  18. Angry_Panda

    Angry_Panda Pipe as shown, slippers not pictured

    This is more effective if you cuss them in German. :laugh:
     
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  19. rl1856

    rl1856 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SC
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  20. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    But do they sound better? And will they hold up like a vintage Dual? Obviously it's very subjective but my opinion is that my old Duals are superior to these. :edthumbs::righton::tiphat::magoo:
     
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  21. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hailey, ID
    I have what I consider to be my nicer table. This one will be for auditioning used records, trying something different, having that look, etc. Not really interested in any of those new tables. And I will be in cheaper than $775 anyway, the route I am going to go. The only other consideration might be a similar vintage belt drive. And I may yet get one of those. Just for one additional different type of table. I know I can get new ones, but having a working table is not the only point. Part of the fun is looking for, fixing up, and enjoying little pieces of history.
     
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  22. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    Yes, I was basing the $775 figure on what I've seen posted on various threads here regarding the cost of a a fully rebuilt 1229 from the guy out west at "Fixmydual" (is that the name?). I have anywhere between, $150 and $550 invested in the various Duals I've picked up and worked on over the last few years. The average is probably $350. And the most expense, apart from the TT itself has been replacing stylus or cartridge.
     
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  23. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hailey, ID
    Yeah, that FixMyDual price is an all in, with complete maintenance/lube/whatever it needs, plus a new dust cover, and an included cartridge, and new base. And I am sure it is nice for someone wanting a plug and play situation with an old Dual. But not what I was looking for.
     
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  24. rischa

    rischa Devout Irreverent

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
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  25. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse Forum Resident

    I have a Technics SL-D2 DD and a DUAL 1218 in the bedroom, and they sound different. The Technics is very even and balanced, but rather polite, while the DUAL has better bass ("fast" as someone said above, with that addictive idler slam) and sounds really alive.

    This is with an old, low powered SE tube amp, and a NAD 3020. I have put DUALs in my main system, which is much more resolving and powerful, and then their flaws become more noticeable - their short arms and slight rumble noise, mostly.

    There is something "pure" about a well-executed idler drive system, though, that to my ears is superior to either DD or belt drive. For this reason, it is nice to have a good example in your turntable collection (Lencos are the best bang for the buck - if you can still find an affordable one - but can take more work to get to really good performance levels, like building a new heavy plinth and putting a decent arm on the plinth, not the chassis - but I digress).

    Good luck finding a sweet DUAL. Those inverted pyramid plinths are cool :)
     
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