Adding a Graphic EQ to (Stereo) Receiver with no "Tape 2" Loop...

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Kaskade10729, Apr 6, 2014.

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  1. Kaskade10729

    Kaskade10729 Senior Member Thread Starter

    I have stated several times that I don't want it for any "specific" reason; I just prefer "EQ'ed" sound -- there really are no problems, per se, with my room/system...

    As for EQ'ing one source, I know I can do that -- but I want to EQ all the sources (i.e. tuner, CD).

    What I'm asking, as was the essence and point of my original post here, is this:

    What if I got an EQ WITH ITS OWN TAPE IN/OUT section, and ran my recording device's analog in/outs through it, then connected the EQ's MAIN in/out's to the Onkyo's TAPE in/out's?
     
  2. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    I understand your question. It will not work. You need either a true tape monitor function on your amp or a pre-out/main-in on your amp to use any external EQ. etc. The problem is that you can have either in or out on your receiver, not both. You need both simultaneously to use an EQ. You feed the raw signal to the EQ and the EQ sends it back to the amp, and you can only do that if you have a loop. You do not. Your receiver is limited to the input selected on the input selector, not that + EQ...
    -Bill
     
  3. Kaskade10729

    Kaskade10729 Senior Member Thread Starter

    Well, thank you for your time and patience anyway. :cry:
     
  4. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    If you try this experiment, it will positively tell you whether the EQ can be used with your receiver as you desire (ie: with all input fuctions)

    It will take about 3 minutes to perform.

     
  5. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    The answer to this question is no because if the receiver does not function in the desired manner in the test described above, you will still have the problem of not being able to toggle between the various inputs.

    *You can use an EQ that has tape in/outs - but only the source connected at the EQ tape monitor in/outs will have its signal affected by the EQ controls.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  6. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    Three of us have now asked the OP to perform this test. So far he hasn't done it. The fact that it doesn't say Monitor on the front panel of his receiver is what he's focusing on. As I read the owner's manual, this receiver will most likely will pass this test and monitor through.

    I really wish he'd try what we are asking. It would take no time to do it and definitively give him the answer, one way or another.

    Instead of investing 5 minutes of his time, he'd rather waste ours. :(
     
    Strat-Mangler and punkmusick like this.
  7. Kaskade10729

    Kaskade10729 Senior Member Thread Starter

    Funny how I'm being accused by gergm of being a "time waster" for everyone here -- as if I am actually, literally, purposely trying to do that because I have nothing better to do -- while there's NOTHING said of the constant contradicting information that's being passed back and forth in the thread...he says my TAPE in/out will pass a monitor function through while almost everyone else is saying THIS WILL NOT WORK...yet, no one is debating this with HIM no matter how many times he accuses me of wasting everyone's time here (which I can assure you all that I am NOT intending to do)...

    How did I become the "bad guy" in all of this?

    I'll try to run that experiment suggested -- but I just wanted to know if anyone had ANY information about these hookups before I started pulling cables out from behind my rack (which is nearly impossible to get to now that everything is installed)...

    Sorry I "wasted everyone's time"...
     
  8. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Not at all; however only by testing the tape "loop" (or lack thereof) can your query be answered in the absolute, inconvenient as it may be.

    Being curious about this question myself, I checked the owners manual and I will say the information regarding recording with this receiver is somewhat unclear. It says that recordings can be made from whatever source is selected (except sources connected to DVD/VCR inputs - oddo_O) but it stops short of stating that comparisons between source signal and that from the recorder outputs can be made. Then it says to consult recorders owners manual for making recording adjustments.

    All this suggests to me is that the tape function on this receiver may be designed as a source and not as the traditional tape monitor loop as has been suggested to you prior, which if confirmed, was a very poor decision on the part of Onkyo for obvious reasons.

    Please report back with your findings. My curiosity is piqued!
     
  9. Bill, I think you are agreeing with what I said in post #2, so if so, thank you. If not, I am outta here. :)

    Kaskade…..I am sorry man, but the horse is dead. It's a bloody pulp. No tape monitor, no EQ. I don't know how you can prove it to yourself unless you connect an EQ to the Onkyo and see what happens when you select the Tape Input. If it does work, you have a secret tape monitor function, and I will be dining on crow. If it does not, then I like my steak medium rare. :)

    IMHO, tape monitor functionality went out of fashion along with 3 Head Tape Decks and external EQ's/Processors. I have a mid-90's AVR (Marantz SR96) that has it, and a mid '00's (Denon 3808) that does not.

    I would not be so fast to attack vendors that no longer include a feature that very few users need or even understand. It sucks when you DO need it and you find that you don't have it, but I would think it is a pretty rare feature in mainstream gear made over the last 15 years or so. In the same vein, many higher end AVR's once had pre-out/power amp input jacks tied together with jumpers. My Marantz has them, the Denon does not.
     
  10. ggergm

    ggergm another spring another baseball season

    Location:
    Minnesota
    I agree with you. The manual doesn't mention tape monitor at all.

    I based my conclusion that it probably is from:
    1. That curious remark about not being able to record from the VCR/DVD input. Why can't you record from VCR/DVD if it's just another input? It would be that way if VCR/DVD was a tape monitor. They come into the signal path downstream from the other sources. You can't record from them unless you have some sort of tape dubbing feature, and that certainly is not on this receiver.
    2. A comment in the troubleshooting section (pg 46) under Can't Record. It says, "To prevent signal loops and damage to the receiver, input signals are not fed through to outputs with the same name (e.g. TAPE IN to TAPE OUT, or VCR/DVR IN to VCR/DVR OUT)." It totally makes sense you'd want this to keep from feeding back, and it would work this way if these two were tape monitors. I tried to figure out how you would do it otherwise. You'd have to have some sort of muting circuit which would cost money. The question is why spend the extra money?
    I think these two inputs are tape monitors. But then, it will be academic when the OP tries the experiment. We'll know.

    And let me thank you in advance for doing it. Yeah, my "time wasting" comment was a cheap shot and totally unnecessary. Plus I was wrong. I obviously like thinking about and working on things like this. You aren't wasting my time. :)

    I am sorry I said it and hope you accept my apology, Kaskade10729.
     
  11. Kaskade10729

    Kaskade10729 Senior Member Thread Starter

    Apology accepted and thanks, everyone; I will reply back just as soon as I have a couple of mins...
     
  12. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    The idea of a possible realization in such a case where an amp has not “TAPE MONITOR” function is not complicated per se, and it lets listen to programs from different sources and record them, equalized or not (by-passed). But rather complicated to accomplish, for it needs an equalizer having several inputs and its own input selector, difficult to find.

    See the block diagram of such a realization below please.
    [​IMG]
    Or a separate commutation station for several inputs is necessary whose output terminals will be connected to the “LINE IN” terminals of an equalizer not having several inputs and its own input selector.
     
  13. darkmass

    darkmass Forum Resident

    You might consider eBaying a "dbx Program Route Selector".

    Now frankly, even though I suspect any of the various models available on eBay would do the job for you, I cannot say that with certainty. But the same search will turn up reprints of owner's manuals. I would expect a manual would tell you everything you want to know. With such a device you shouldn't need a "monitor" button on the receiver if all your desired inputs could be plugged into the dbx.
     
  14. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

  15. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    And don’t forget please that a TT equipped with an MM or MC cartridge and not equipped with a phono stage (built-in or external), respectively for MM or MC cartridge, can’t be connected directly to an external input selector or to an equalizer. Most piezo/ceramic cartridges can be connected to line level inputs of integrateds or preamps, to external input selectors or equalizers.
     
  16. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    If you do, start with the volume way down just in case it creates a feedback loop.
     
  17. dat56

    dat56 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SW Missouri
    Sad state of affairs, really -the lack of analog tape/processor loops. I always thought they would be replaced with digital versions, but things didn't play out that way.

    Kaskade, I think you have two options. Either buy a receiver, amp or preamp with an analog tape loop (rare as hens' teeth these days, but there's lots on the used market) or get into a nice a/v receiver that has a built-in eq. Outlaw Audio has a nice, strong 100W stereo receiver with a processor loop for about $700, I think. And NAD has some nice, affordable integrateds with tape loops. My NAD 165 pre has a tape loop too, which was a big factor in my purchase of it. I consider it (a tape loop) almost a necessity if you have Bose 901 speakers.
     
  18. Gary Miles

    Gary Miles New Member

    Dude did you ever figure this out? Going through the same issue on my Kenwood.
     
  19. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Why do you want to use a graphic EQ? If your receiver sounds so bad that you think you need one, just get a better receiver. :)
     
  20. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    This will work just fine, BUT it will introduce a little more noise (S/N ratio) from the internal eq circuits (and it better be a hell of a quality unit).

    This is the best way to go to ensure your cd recorder gets the purest signal possible. But it is also somewhat annoying. Record a cd using both types of connections and hear whether or not you can tell the difference.

    I understand you feel the need for an eq because I know I could not do without one. Get at least a good 10-band per channel one.

    Keep us posted.
     
  21. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    As the diagram to my first post of explanation of possibilities to use an equalizer for to listen to programs from different sources and record them, when your integrated has no monitoring function is lost: “File has expired and does not exist anymore on this server”, I’ll renew it here.
    ====

    “Kaskade10729 said:

    My receiver does not have a "TAPE MONITOR" button...that's what I have been trying to tell everyone...”
    ------

    The idea of a possible realization in such a case where an amp has not “TAPE MONITOR” function is not complicated per se, and it lets listen to programs from different sources and record them, equalized or not (by-passed). But rather complicated to accomplish, for it needs an equalizer having several inputs and its own input selector, difficult to find.
    See the block diagram of such a realization below please.
    Or a separate commutation station for several inputs is necessary whose output terminals will be connected to the “LINE IN” terminals of an equalizer not having several inputs and its own input selector.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Do you not like the way your amp/receiver/whatever sounds? Does it have tone controls?
     
  23. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    It does indeed, and of the semi-parametric kind; bass+/-10 db at the 400hz position and +/-6 db at the 200 hz position. Same with treble at its 2.5 and 5 khz positions, which are highly useful for general tonal correction. Let's say I just want the eq for the more subtle , specific and occasional correction of a certain narrower portion of the audio spectrum.

    And I love the way it sounds; it's my musical tastes that are to blame I guess. Generally speaking most of my records haven't been recorded on a high budget.

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  24. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Gentlemen - this this thread had not been active since April 12, 2014 and the OP has not been active on the forum since April 8, 2014.
     
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