Agharta & Pangaea, is there not a market for a CD reissue?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by babaluma, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I am frustrated by the fact that these two classic Miles Davis albums are only available either as the poor sounding original Columbia cds or expensive Japanese CD imports. Is there not enough of a market for these albums for anyone to reissue them as has been done with his other electric albums such as Dark Magus etc.

    I mean if albums like Dark Magus or In Concert: Live at Philharmonic Hall, which arguably feature more difficult music than Agharta & Pangaea, can be remastered and sold what is the problem with Agharta & Pangaea? Is it a licensing thing? They are in his box set are they not so what is the problem? I wish they had been reissued with that first batch of classic Miles where they would have got the full exposure they deserve.
     
  2. boe

    boe Forum Resident

    Location:
    buffalo ny
    I have no idea what the answer to your question is but I wholeheartedly endorse the concept. I would love a box centered on Pangaea / Agartha that also might include some the other concerts from the Pete Cosey era that circulate. I'd be all in for sure. And as far as interest, those albums have proven to be well-regarded and influential over time. The period right before Miles's semi-retirement is due for some exposure / major reassessment.
     
  3. Beatnik_Daddyo'73

    Beatnik_Daddyo'73 Music Addiction Personified

    ...I agree 100%. I have both in the Japan Master Sound series, which I paid like $30 each brand new. I see on Discogs right now both for about $20 each secondhand in NM condition. Not too bad for double disc sets.

    Would love a bootleg series set with this band. Hopefully one day...........SOON!
     
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  4. Andersoncouncil

    Andersoncouncil Forum Resident

    Location:
    upstate NY
    It's a real head scratcher. Even more so, considering how many multiple reissues we have gotten from the Miles Columbia catalog (metal spine box sets, individual CD remasters, Deluxe editions, bootleg series...). I really do think it is coming as part of the Bootleg series. I just hope they don't wait too long!
     
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  5. jimjim

    jimjim Forum Resident

    I think someone on here explained to me a while back why these weren't added to the 'Electric Miles' reissue series from 15/16 (?) years ago. I remember it was a contractual thing or something related to the gig the recordings came from (both the same night IIRC).
     
  6. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Yes I am pretty sure it must be a contractual thing, someone somewhere wants too much money! Maybe the money wanted outweighs what the projected sales would be? Sometimes it is hard to realise that outside hardcore fans for most people Miles Davis = Kind of Blue and they would run a mile from his funk freakouts. Does anyone know the sales figures for the electric box sets or the reissues of Dark magus etc? Maybe there just isn't the mainstream the interest for A&P? While Bitches Brew is a difficult album it was at least publicised with a massive show at Isle of Wight and lots of adverts in the press, while I believe A&P were only released in Japan originally?
     
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  7. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Sorry this is the version you mean for the best sound? I have been dancing around getting them as I keep thinking they maybe reissued! Also they are a lot of money for me and I wnat to be sure I get the best sounding ones. Also what is thre difference, if any between the bluspec and mastersound, whatever this means.

    Miles Davis - Agharta

    Miles Davis - Pangaea
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  8. eeglug

    eeglug Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Over time, I have amassed 3 CD versions (Columbia, Mastersound SRCS-xxxx and BluSpec CD2) of each of these albums and I probably paid $30+ for each one. I also probably paid a pretty penny for Agharta on import vinyl back in my pre-CD days (but I no longer have access to it anymore). So yes, it's expensive collecting these. But they're great music. There may possibly be other variations besides these 3 but so far that's all I know of.

    Unfortunately all 3 cd versions are different from each other and I'm hard-pressed to pick a true winner among them. I guess I would choose the BluSpec CD2 versions if I absolutely had to pick. They are supposedly the original vinyl mix, which many "learned" these albums on, so many consider these best. It probably won't matter to you if you don't know these albums well, but these original mixes are very 'mixing engineer' intensive...meaning that the mixer is really in there changing levels of instruments and applying and removing reverb to passages as the music goes by. The mixing engineer is really micro-managing the sonic picture you are hearing. But as I said, many prefer this version because it was their first exposure to this music.

    The two other versions are the old Columbia and the Mastersound SRCS-xxxx versions. These seem to be the same basic mix and unlike the BluSpec CD2, the mix is more straightforward without the manipulation. The Columbia has more reverb on it; the Mastersound is pretty dry and in-your-face. (I actually really like the Mastersound version because the reverb doesn't obscure the instruments as much)

    In terms of compression the Columbia (which most dislike) has the best (highest) DR values and therefore seems to have the least compression. The Mastersound is most compressed (and possibly EQ'd a but too) and the BluSpec CD2 is in between the others compression-wise.

    As you can see it's a real mixed bag of choices.

    I posted some sound samples of each if you want to audition them on this thread post.
     
  9. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    I'm missing the "long" Japanese Agharta, but I have the rest of the mixes. In my opinion, the originals hasn't been surpassed, and that's why I love those bluspecs so much.
     
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  10. Beatnik_Daddyo'73

    Beatnik_Daddyo'73 Music Addiction Personified

    ...yes, those are the ones I have. They sound really good in my opinion.

    ...thanks for the breakdown @eeglug :righton:

    From reading the Miles ABA thread and @crispi posts in particular, I was under the impression that the mix on the Blu-Spec2 and Master Sound were the same. Maybe I misread something.
     
  11. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    Oh, and, yes, a nice Bootleg volume from this era would be awesome.
     
  12. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    Agharta and Pangaea were already on CD in the U.S. in the Jazz Masterpieces series from the early 90's. The five albums in the Electric Miles series had never been on CD in the U.S.
     
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  13. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    They aren't the same. I wasn't aware of the Mastersound when I wrote that. Sorry.
     
  14. yasujiro

    yasujiro Forum Resident

    Location:
    tokyo
  15. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL, US
    Agharta came out in the U.S. on LP in 1976, Pangaea not until the CD reissue in 1990.
     
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  16. George P

    George P Forum Pianophile

    Location:
    NYC
    Amazing post! Thanks for this
     
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  17. yasujiro

    yasujiro Forum Resident

    Location:
    tokyo
    The duration of Agharta is too long for a vinyl side and the Sony mastering engineer had to narrowed the stereo width.
     
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  18. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    the blu-spec editions are the way to go... unfortunately prices have risen.
     
  19. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    I think the Mastersounds feature the longer mixes.
     
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  20. Beatnik_Daddyo'73

    Beatnik_Daddyo'73 Music Addiction Personified

    ...yeah, I went back and re-read it. You mention the DSD not the Master Sound. My bad.
    I remember now why I sought out the Master Sound. It was for the 9+ extra minutes. Now I need to get me the original mix. :agree:

    @Rne haha! Yep they do. :righton:
     
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  21. yasujiro

    yasujiro Forum Resident

    Location:
    tokyo
    How the sound of the band would have been, if Miles had continued after 1975?
     
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  22. RiRiIII

    RiRiIII Forum Resident

    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    What about the versions in the Complete Miles on Columbia box set (original sleeves)? Thanks!

    Edit: the reply is in another thread:

    "More on that interview with Jazzwise editor Jon Newey and boxed set co-producer Richard Siedel in the December/January issue of Jazzwise. Unfortunately it's not linked, but there's a good-sized review along with a short interview, which I've transcribed below. Would recommend you buy the mag! www.jazzwise.com

    I am mystified by couple of Seidel's answers. He doesn't really explain why the Master Sound expanded version of Pangaea was included but not Agharta. Also, I don't see how including Miles! Miles! Miles! would have made it redundant. It would have been good for Miles's fans to hear the original, unedited version of "Jean-Pierre" on Miles! Miles! Miles!Great news that Sony have more Miles releases are planned, but a shame no immediate plans for the 1975 band or the 1980s material. By the way, Jazzwise gave the boxed set a five-star (excellent) review, for the music, value for money and great packaging. I am assuming the reviewer's version was hand-crafted and not delivered from Amazon!

    JN: This is a colossal project. How did it come about?
    Richard Seidel: The project was initiated by Sony France to go alongside the Miles Davis at the Musee de la Musique in Paris that is running until 17 January. It’s produced by Daniel Baumgarten, head of jazz at Sony France, and myself. Miles played more times in France than he played anywhere else outside of the United States.

    JN: Which remasters have been used in the boxed set?
    RS: Mark Wilder, who has remastered virtually all of the Miles CD boxed sets since the mid-1990s, and myself reviewed the possible sources that had been done for the US and Japan and picked the ones we felt were best.

    JN: The slightly longer Japan Master Sound of Pangaea has been used here but the remaster of Agharta is the original length, not the Master Sound version that has an extra eight minutes of percussion jamming at the end of disc two.
    RS: The original time Agharta came out in Japan on CD, it did not include the extra music. Since then, sometimes it has, sometimes it hasn’t. This had more to do with choosing the best sound source available...."

    This is why I had bought only the Agharta Mastersound set.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  23. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    Indeed. Very comprehensive and interesting musical analysis.
     
  24. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    Location:
    Malaver
    I wish the box set included precise information about the master which was chosen for each title. My only complaint about that wonderful release.
     
  25. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Great thanks for this detailed post, very helpful!
     

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