Agharta & Pangaea, is there not a market for a CD reissue?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by babaluma, Mar 1, 2018.

  1. Hootsmon

    Hootsmon Forum Resident

    It was rumoured a few years ago that very idea was being touted as a Bootleg Series release. Perhaps the contractual stuff mentioned on this thread scuppered it.
    I agree though. It would make a terrific release.
  2. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Chicago, IL, US
    I know people here and on other forums have suggested it. Was there evidence that Sony was considering it?
  3. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have downloaded a bootleg of three shows from the Tokyo shows from 1 January, 7 and 8th February. Agharta and Pangaea were the 1st Feb performances I believe.

    I have just relabelled them all as they were in a bit of a mess but will give them a listen and report back. They seem to be of reasonable audience recordings and will be interesting to compare them to the released concerts. I also have a recording of the first gig, 22nd Jan which is absolutely firebreathing!

    So there is definitely a bunch of concerts that could make a bootleg series box set. It would be great to have a box with as many of the 6 Tokyo dates as possible. We have selections of 5 already with the above and the official releases. The box could have the bootlegs plus a remaster of A & G! Imagine something of the beauty and quality of the Complete On The Corner box!

    There is also a bootleg of the 1st July New York show which I believe is the last live performance of this band. I had a very poor quality copy but just found one that seems a bit better and will also listen and report.
    ohnothimagen likes this.
  4. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    I didn't think Sony has ever hinted at a Bootleg Series from the 1975 tour. Aside from the Jan 22 radio broadcast the other broadcast/audience recordings are fairly terrible in quality.
    The Jan 22 performance is certainly release-worthy, but it's already widely available.
    It would be cool if Teo Macero had recorded more concerts besides Osaka (on Agharta/Pangaea), but I seem to recall that he only recorded those two concerts on the Japanese tour.
    penguinzzz and ohnothimagen like this.
  5. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen I don't suffer fools or trolls gladly...

    Yep, good show. Not as good as the Agharta/Panagea performances but it's kind of an apples and oranges comparison anyway.
    My "b--tleg ears" might not be what they used to be, but IMO the Cosey band doesn't translate to audience tapes very well, at least the more mediocre recordings anyway. The soundboards and FM broadcasts are good, though.
    DTK likes this.
  6. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I think I like Fortune because as the band gets weirder he keeps that look back to the tradition in his playing. With Liebman sometimes everything felt a bit hysterical, not his playing but his approach plus Miles, plus Cosey, plus Gaumont, plus Miles on his organ! With Fortune you can go "ah a bit of sweet melody" in the maelstrom. No knock to Liebman who is wonderful.
    Lonson and DTK like this.
  7. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    If the Tokyo 1975 cd is the same as the bootleg from 22nd January it is a killer! I think it may have the edge on Agharta actually. I also think the first side of Pangaea is the peak of the various concerts although it does taper off as the concert goes on.

    I think Henderson suffers the most on bootlegs and even on official albums like Dark Magus. I think a lot of the perceived chaos of this line up is down to Henderson being undermixed throughout 1973-75. He started coming to the front once Gaumont and the keyboards, sitar left. When he is well mixed everything seems to fall into place.
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  8. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    Miles biographer Jack Chambers opined that with Liebman, it sounds like he's playing over the band, but with Fortune it sounds like he's playing with the band.
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  9. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen I don't suffer fools or trolls gladly...

    The Tokyo '75 CD and the January 22 '75 show are one and the same. I want to say it was opening night for the tour- Miles sounds a little shaky at times but the rest of the band kicks ass as usual.

    If it were up to me my ultimate Agharta/Panagea would be disc one of Agharta and disc two of Panagea. IMO the "Jack Johnson Theme/Interlude" and "Zimbabwe" can get a little tedious, but I love "Prelude" and "Gondwana".
    In addition to being undermixed the fuzz and wah effects Michael Henderson applied at times tended to murk his bass up that much more, but it's all some killer playing once you can pick it out of the mix. One of my favourite bass players.
    DTK likes this.
  10. babaluma

    babaluma Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have been listening to the three Tokyo shows, they are reasonable crowd recordings. Not great but far from unlistenable. Depending on where the audience member was standing sometimes the sax or lead guitar can be very low in the mix and the bass is there but not defined just a rumble. However Miles cuts through well and the rhythm guitar and drums are good. Maybe I have lower standards but I think it is pretty enjoyable and a decent remaster could do wonders to them.

    The shows are not complete, a lot of the songs fade in. However the performances are pretty vital and showcase some different aspects to the band, in particular a huge noise out on Calypso Frelimo. They really push it for about 10 minutes going from Metal Machine Music into Kontakte and out the other side. I have not actually heard the band go into such pure noise before so very interesting.
    Robert C, ohnothimagen and acetboy like this.
  11. outrolado

    outrolado Well-Known Member

    The On The Corner box set was a compromise set. Before it was released I corresponded with the late Bob Belden about the Columbia metal spine box sets. He told me he was anticipating an On The Corner and a 73-75 Box set. Instead the On The Corner sessions and everything recorded in the studio from June 1972 until 1976 was released as the "Complete On The Corner" box set.
    Sure, it is still 6 discs and amazing, essential material, but it was compromised big time.
    Here's a note of what he sent me:
    "What's left. 6-CD box "The Complete On The Corner Sessions", 5-CD "The
    Complete Studio Sessions 1973-76), "Antibes 1969" 2-CD's,
    "The Complete Live At Fillmore, June 1970" 4-CDs, Bootleg box #1-Live
    1955-59 (6 CD's), Bootleg box #2-Live 1960 (8 CD's),
    Bootleg box #3-Live 1964, Bootleg Box #4-Live 1966-67, #5 1969,
    #6-1970, #7-1971. etc....

    The live 1975 material would be great to redo but it's tough out you can see there is much to do. And there are also 15
    from 1964-73 that could be issued.

    Where do you live?"

    From Bob Belden in 2006.

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  12. outrolado

    outrolado Well-Known Member

    Both Dave Liebman and Sonny Fortune are great. I love both of their presences. Dave Liebman is why Dark Magus sounds the way it does. Haunting and deep. Sonny Fortunes Sax solos on Agharta and Pangaea are so hot and are his style. His flute on Ife is exceptional as well.
  13. outrolado

    outrolado Well-Known Member

    I've been listening to this music since around 2000-2001. Around the turn of the millenium, colombia resissued many albums. I first had the Bitches Brew box set, which was a revelation. This was followed by Live Evil, On the Corner, Get up with it, and finding digipacks (1997 era) of Dark Magus and In concert. I ordered a ****ty Jazz masters 1990 CD version of Pangaea off of Amazon in 2001 while I was living in Costa Rica. I dubbed it to cassette and then traveled all over South America. I didn't hear Agharta until 2003 when I found a used CD from the same vintage. Around 2008 or so I bought a Japanese mastersound Agharta, then found the original Japanese vinyl releases of Agharta and Pangaea. Just in 2016 I bought Pangaea on bluspec JP. What can i say? The Japanese releases are far superior. I am proud to own the original vinyl, which sound amazing. I am also glad the Japanese CDs sound great too. I am still mystified why this day in February of 1975 Osaka Japan, has not received the proper definitive release. Columbia records was clueless then, and now. This is some of the most realized music of his career. I hope their will be a bootleg series that includes something from this tour:
    January 22 (Wed): Tokyo Koseinenkinkaikan Hall (7:00 pm)
    January 23 (Thu): Tokyo Koseinenkinkaikan Hall (7:00 pm)
    January 24 (Fri): Nagoya Shiminkaikan (Nagoya civic auditorium) (6:30 pm)
    January 25 (sat): Kyoto Kaikan Hall (No. 1) (6:30 pm)
    January 27 (Mon): Sapporo Koseinenkinkaikan Hall (6:30 pm)
    January 30 (Thu): Kokura Shiminkaikan (City Hall) (6:30 pm)
    February 1 (Sat): Osaka Festival Hall (two concerts, 4:00 pm and 7:00 pm)
    February 2 (Sun): Osaka Festival Hall (2:00 pm)
    February 3 (Mon): Shizuoka City Sunpukaikan (6:30 pm)
    February 4 (Tue): Miyagi Kenminkaikan (6:30 pm)
    February 7 (Fri): Tokyo Koseinenkinkaikan Hall
    February 8 (Sat): Tokyo Koseinenkinkaikan Hall (two concerts, 2:00 pm and 7:00 pm)
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  14. fatwad666

    fatwad666 Forum Resident

    Fat City, USA
    Wonderful information you've provided here. Thanks for sharing it!

    Illuminating to see what was initially being planned out five years before Miles's Bootleg Series finally began on CD. Can anyone with more knowledge than me line up Bob Belden's hopeful list with what's actually been released since and what exists in the vault otherwise? My meager attempt to start below (open to all corrections and additions!)

    6-CD box "The Complete On The Corner Sessions"
    The Complete On the Corner Sessions
    5-CD "The Complete Studio Sessions 1973-76"
    "Antibes 1969" 2-CD's
    Live in Europe 1969: The Bootleg Series Vol. 2 (Discs 1+2)​
    "The Complete Live At Fillmore, June 1970" 4-CDs
    Miles at the Fillmore – Miles Davis 1970: The Bootleg Series Vol. 3
    Bootleg box #1-Live 1955-59 (6 CD's)
    Bootleg box #2-Live 1960 (8 CD's)
    ? Partially released on Miles Davis & John Coltrane – The Final Tour: The Bootleg Series, Vol. 6 (4-CD)?​
    Bootleg box #3-Live 1964
    Bootleg Box #4-Live 1966-67
    ? Partially released on Miles Davis Quintet – Live in Europe 1967 (3-CD, 1-DVD)?​
    #5 1969
    ? Partially released on Bitches Brew 40th (Disc 3) and Bitches Brew Live (Tracks 1-3)?​
    ? Partially released on Bitches Brew Live (Tracks 4-9)?​
  15. frightwigwam

    frightwigwam Talented Amateur

    I wonder if the "Complete On the Corner" box was a condensed compromise of what Beldon had in mind for OTC and '73-76 box sets, in which we have roughly 2 CD's of 1972 sessions (8 tracks from June-Sept 1972) + 3 CD's of '73-75 takes + 1 CD of the remastered album, but some of the minutiae or less inspired takes have been left out. It's hard to imagine that there are really 5 more CD's of good unreleased material from '73-76.

    Some of the '55-59 has come out, now. 1955 Newport, of course. The '56 Pasadena show was a bonus disc on a Round About Midnight Legacy reissue. But there are still a lot of broadcast recordings from the period, including an appearance on the Steve Allen Show in '55, some Cafe Bohemia shows with Sonny Rollins in '57, and a handful of dates in '58-59. They might also include the video of the Robert Herridge show (not really a bootleg, I guess, but that hasn't stopped them before).

    I expect that Part 2 of the Spring 1960 box will include April 8-9, Zurich and the two shows in The Netherlands. Maybe the Germany dates between those and Copenhagen, but the sound quality of those German shows on bootleg releases aren't as good as the other dates in circulation. They also might include some of the Fall 1960 recordings with Sonny Stitt to pad out the box (and provide some contrast to the band with Trane).

    The first date from the Fall 1964 tour gave us the Miles in Berlin album, but Peter Losin lists 4 more radio recordings from the tour--I think Sindelfingen is particularly long and strong. 10/11 Milan was filmed for television; as I recall, the video in circulation is a bit rough, but maybe there is a more crisp film in the vault that could clean up nicely. I'd guess that they'll most likely choose Sindelfingen, Paris, and Stockholm, and possibly one or both of the extant recordings from Japan in July. They might include video from the Steve Allen Playhouse in September, but the circulating video is kind of washed out--Tony practically looks like a ghost.

    Of course, Newport '66 and much of Fall '67 have been released. There still is a '66 Portland show, currently available from the Sunburn label (Live at the Oriental Theatre 1966); April '67 Berkeley, available from Keyhole; and a few extant shows from Fall '67 in Europe, including a good TV broadcast recording from 10/31 Stockholm.

    There doesn't seem to be anything from 1968, except for a poor audience recording from Boston in December--a pity, because that's Tony Williams' last live recording with Miles. 1969 has some worthwhile recordings of the band in America, particularly the Village Gate, the Blue Coronet, and Central Park, but Sony probably isn't interested because they're audience tapes. But maybe London, Vienna, Paris, and Rotterdam could make up a Fall '69 Part 2 set; I know that there is good video of Paris online.

    Most of the 1970 good stuff has been released, except for 3/6 Fillmore East and the October run at Fillmore West. I'd also love to see video of Miles on The Dick Cavett Show and The Tonight Show hosted by Bill Cosby.

    A lot of Fall 1971 could still be released; the 10/22 Switzerland show in the "At Newport" box is the only '71 live recording to come out, so far. There's also a 5/7 Fillmore West show that's only been released by Wolfgang's Vault.

    At some point, I expect one or two 1973 sets to come out, too. There are a lot of radio and TV recordings from Japan and Europe that year (TV from Tokyo, Berlin, and Vienna that I can recall--oh, and the 'In Concert' appearance on ABC!), and so far Berlin's audio is the only thing released by Sony. Well, the Montreux show was part of the giant Complete Montreux box, but I'd like to see that given a more affordable release, too.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  16. Rmono

    Rmono Well-Known Member

    Queens, NY
    Calling it "The Complete On The Corner" is slightly inaccurate because some of the "Get Up With It" material is vastly different.
  17. pbuzby

    pbuzby Forum Resident

    Chicago, IL, US
    Nearly the entire fall 1971 European tour was broadcast on radio. It could be a box set, although the shows are similar in setlist and performance to the Cellar Door set (and more ragged in the drum department with Ndugu standing in for Jack DeJohnette).
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  18. frightwigwam

    frightwigwam Talented Amateur

    After all this time, I really hope that they do NOT wind up passing off US reissues of Agharta and Pangaea as a new volume of The Bootleg Series. I can't express strongly enough what an insult that would be. That's four discs in the series that should be dedicated to previously unreleased, actual BOOTLEG recordings. It's bad enough that they made a lot of us pay high import prices--some of us, multiple times--or buy a multi-album collection in search of the ideal mixes, or else settle for the inferior masterings while waiting for a domestic reissue. If they finally say, "Hey, if you want 1/22/75 Tokyo on officially released CD, you'll have to pay $40 to get Agharta and Pangaea again--and wait until next year for something new," I'm really going to be so disgusted and angry.

    If they want to put out new Agharta and Pangaea reissues outside of Japan, great, but do it properly.

    If they want to find a way to put 1/22/75 in the series, hopefully they make up a multi-year "Live in Japan" set of previously unreleased material. 1964-75-85 plus '73 Tokyo on video would work fine.
    ohnothimagen and Jazzmonkie like this.
  19. bradman

    bradman Forum Resident

    Disgusted and angry? How entitled can one be? Be glad anything comes out as a physical release, there ain't gonna be too many more.
    PJayBe likes this.
  20. frightwigwam

    frightwigwam Talented Amateur

    If I'm angry about the record company ripping off customers and mistreating the Miles catalogue, I'm "entitled" and should just be glad to be granted anything at all. That's a good one. I've bought each album three times, btw. I think I am entitled to complain if they don't treat me and the catalogue right, actually.
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  21. fatwad666

    fatwad666 Forum Resident

    Fat City, USA
    Informative, thorough, and helpful — thanks!
  22. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen I don't suffer fools or trolls gladly...

    IMO the Tokyo 6/19/73 and 1/22/75 shows deserve standalone official releases of their own. I know there's tones of unofficial releases (I have 'em) but Sony really should put these shows out.
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  23. tvstrategies

    tvstrategies Multicast is dead

    I have vinyl of each, and they are all good, but how about remixed/remastered Agharta, Pangaea and Dark Magus issued in a metal spine box called The Incomplete Miles in Japan Sessions. Picking up as Volume 8 of the sequence following The Complete On The Corner Sessions. I’d buy one for me and several to sell for extortionate prices next year ;-) Use this thread as the liner notes
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  24. Rne

    Rne Sufferin' succotash!

    I don't see why it should be remastered or remixed, those two albums are just perfect the way they are, in my opinion (at least on their original Japanese mixes versions). Dark Magus is a bit more raw-sounding.
    Anyway, any new release from that era will be extremely well-received by me. And re-releasing the On The Corner sessions in a long-box format would be just perfect, wouldn't it? :righton:
    tvstrategies likes this.
  25. 93curr

    93curr Senior Member

    'Dark Magus' was recorded in Japan?

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