amp advice-tube or solid state

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by buster193, Feb 11, 2002.

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  1. buster193

    buster193 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    canada
    I lean toward a mellower sound. the DAC I have uses 2 tubes ,I dont know if this affects the sound(sonic frontiers)


    Im currently running my system with a linn intergraded Amp.

    Would it be plausible to use my current amp as a preamp with
    conjuction to a power amp. thanks
     
  2. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    No, definately not.

    What's wrong with your Linn? You might like a modern SS pre with tube amplification, but what speeks are you using, music do you listen to?

    Are you leaning twords tubes or SS? Remember, tubes can sometimes be expensive, addicting and sometimes need care.
     
  3. buster193

    buster193 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    canada
    Linn keilidh speakers. As for the rest.

    Linn intek

    Rega planet via sonic frontiers SFD-1 DAC.
     
  4. R. Cat Conrad

    R. Cat Conrad Almost Famous

    Location:
    D/FW Metroplex
    Hello Buster, I'd take a slightly different approach.

    Not to disagree with Sckott's assessment, but some folks are drawn to tubes like a moth to a flame. The trick is to appreciate the warmth without getting burned. FTR, I'm a confirmed "tube-o-phile" who was at one time a dedicated "solid statesman", but NEVER a cost-is-no-object one in either case. Now it's just my impression, but having glanced over your gear, it suggests to me that you're probably seeking as much of the tube sound as possible in your system. Note: The "hint" came from your choice of a CD player as well as the DAC you've chosen to partner with it.

    Of course Linn has an excellent high-end reputation and the Linn integrated is probably exceptional dependent upon it's age and your music preferences, but it won't provide you with tube warmth. The Sonic Frontiers DAC may offer some modest improvement in smoothing out transister edginess if that's an issue for you, but not having auditioned the model you're using it's only speculation on my part. Note: Where DACs are concerned I'm of the opinion that one is usually better off with a decent high bit-rate high oversampling solid state unit and good digital interface jitter killer (i.e., such as the Monarchy DIP or similar unit), with tubes introduced further up the chain.

    My suggestion, if you're seriously considering delving deeper into the wonderful world of tubes, would be to go with a full function tubed preamp utilizing your integrated amp's preamp input, rather than purchasing a tubed power amplifier (i.e., not that I'm opposed to tube power amps by any means, it's just that sound-wise you'll get more "tube" bang for the buck the other way, IMHO). Note: I'm assuming that your integrated has both a pre-in and an amp-out since you asked about adding a tube power amp; usually, with a good integrated, if you have an amp output you'll also have a preamp input. Anyway, adding a tubed preamp should give you much more of the "tube" sound than approaching it the other way around. Of course, it goes without saying that you'll need to carefully audition to find the right synergy between components and your speakers, and if you catch "upgradeitis" you may wish to audition tubed amps and new speakers as well, but that's another story. ;)

    Cheers,
    Robert Cat Conrad
     
  5. buster193

    buster193 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    canada
    what would you recommend in terms of a good preamp(tube) at a reasonable cost.

    rob
     
  6. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I LOVE my Bottlehead Foreplay, if that helps at all.


    www.bottlehead.com

    It's a simple kit, very inexpensive, and thoughtfully designed. Trouble is, you have to wait 10 weeks for average ship-out time.
     
  7. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    B.C.
    I've heard that Marantz is very good and somewhat reasonably priced although I'll wait and see what our tube experts have to say on this one as I, like you am in the same situation, minus the tube output cd player, but am not so sure that I want to part with my Classe' DR-6 pre.

    For me I think that I'd rather up-grade to a tube power amp, unless our tube experts here advise strongly against doing so.

    Take care;)
     
  8. Jim Ricketts

    Jim Ricketts Active Member

    Location:
    Freedom, USA
    If mixing types, I would recommend ss preamp and tube amplifier to drive the speakers.
     
  9. Highway Star

    Highway Star New Member

    Location:
    eastern us
    I go the SS preamp and tube power amp route with very good results. Can't give up my Sony E2000ESD because it gives me a lot of flexibility with various recordings that need a little extra tweaking. Plus it has a bypass switch which takes everything out except the volume control. The amp is a Music Reference RM-9.
     
  10. R. Cat Conrad

    R. Cat Conrad Almost Famous

    Location:
    D/FW Metroplex
    Reasonable costing preamps:

    Well, "reasonable cost" to one man might be a Honda Civic and to the next a Cadillac or Mercedes, but since the quality of sound isn't measured in the dollars one invests in audio gear, let's focus on the frugle end of the scale.

    Your purchase should depend on what functions you require and the level of tube performance you want. With that in mind, it isn't necessary to spend $2000 plus on a preamp to achieve wonderful performance. Sckott's suggestion is very good and meets several key points: low cost, good performance and from all I've heard very dependable. OTOH, if you aren't too keen on DIY construction and want full function you may wish to seek other alternatives. Before you get started though, and before grappling with any of our suggestions, you should consider which course of action to take based on the amount you want to spend and whether you want to involve yourself in building the component yourself. Here are your options and what you should expect in savings:

    1) New--- Benefit: You purchase a brand new tube preamp with full warranty from a franchised dealer or one of several reputable direct sales manufacturers over the internet. Internet dealers usually offer trial periods for their gear as incentives since you can't audition before purchase. Dependent upon your budget and the functions you require (i.e., number & types of inputs and outputs) you can still find some excellent performers for under $1000.

    2) Used--- Benefit: Audiophiles usually take very good care of their gear and frequent upgrades aren't unusual (i.e., lots of high performance gear in great shape reaches the used market). Keeping that in mind, if you can live with a reduced or non-existent warranty there are opportunities for REAL savings of 40-50% or more off of msrp on highly respected gear. Sites like Audio Shopper and AudiogoN have lots of ads for well kept single owner high-end gear; I don't mind mentioning that I bought my Audible Illusion Modulus 3A off of AudiogoN for well under $1400 (retails for around $2500 msrp) and the owner threw in several pairs of rare vintage tubes to sweeten the deal. That was two years ago; the preamp wasn't two years old when I bought it. BTW, when I received it the unit didn't have a scratch on it and it still performs flawlessly! If you are thinking about buying used audition as much gear as possible before hand so that you know exactly what you're looking for when it comes up for sale.

    3) Kits--- Benefit: About the same general cost savings as you would get buying used gear since you're supplying the labor. Note: Kit manufacturers usually provide some form of limited or full warranty as well. OTOH, if you've never constructed any audio gear, you would be well advised to pick up some basic electronics instruction (i.e., such as Audio Reality available at the Transcenedent site) or at least practice with a soldering iron before attempting such a project. It's important to get input from others who've constructed the model you settle on to get a general idea of it's complexity, ease of construction, and if there's any confusion in supplied directions. As with new and used preamps, be sure the DIY model has all of the inputs and outputs you'll require. Note: Some models have as few as one or two sets of inputs and a single set of outputs; if that's all you'll need that's fine, but if you have multiple input sources or ever decide to add a powered subwoofer ...well, you get the idea.

    Well, now that I've gone through that (sorry, about being so long winded) let's look at what's available first at the used gear sites.

    I checked the AudiogoN site http://www.audiogon.com/ and located a used Audible Illusions Modulus 3A for $1000 which appears to be a steal; there's also a Rogue 66 which has been well reviewed in both print and the internet and has received a lot of testimonial praise from owners for $1100 (comes with remote). That's not much of a discount over new (msrp. is $1400, if I'm not mistaken), but even though I can't endorse the Rogue personally, not having auditioned one myself, the evidence seems to favor it being worthy of consideration. BTW, I'd stay away from the Golden Tube stuff; it's just my opinion, but I auditioned one of this companies tube preamps several years ago and was less than impressed.

    Over at Audio Shopperhttp://www.audioshopper.com/ there's a Conrad-Johnson PV10A for $675, and Audio Research SP-3A1 for $650, another Rogue 66 and several other interesting prospects in the $1000-$1300 range such as the Welborne Labs Reveille Line Stage preamp.

    Now, let's look at some new gear available for purchase directly from manufacturers' internet sites:

    Okay, here's a very versatile little preamp with a nice selection of inputs and outputs that make it well worth considering for $800. I've heard the Wright WLA12A line stage in a fellow audio enthusiast's system and it sounded pretty darn good (i.e., lot's of tube warmth without any bass mushiness or veiling of transients). http://www.wright-sound.com/products/MoreDetail.asp?ID=1
    Another direct purchase preamp which might be worth checking out is the Grounded Grid (3 inputs/1 output) purchasable from Transcendent Sound in either kit form at $499 or factory assembled for $799. I haven't heard one of these, but I do own Transcendent tube amps which are extremely reliable and neutral. Note: My AIM3A preamp provides the desired tube warmth. I suspect that the Grounded Grid is more neutral than warm, but it should still have the tube characteristics audiophile's love (i.e., clarity w/o fatigue, for instance). Here is the Transcendent GG page: http://www.transcendentsound.com/preamp kit.htm

    Whew! Well, that about covers it, ...I think. Well, at least it should get you pointed in the right direction. If you have any more questions I'll make every effort to respond just as soon as my finger tips heal from this marathon post! :D

    Cheers,
    Robert Cat Conrad
     
  11. pigmode

    pigmode Active Member

    Location:
    HNL
    I would put the Wright at the top of my list...isn't the Audible Ilusions supposed to be hard on tubes?
     
  12. R. Cat Conrad

    R. Cat Conrad Almost Famous

    Location:
    D/FW Metroplex
    Regarding Audible Illusions and tube longevity, it depends on the tubes.

    The manufacturer recommends select Sovtek 6922 tubes because of their ruggedness, reasonable cost and availability, but it isn't the best sounding tube for the AIM3A by any stretch; NOS Russian military tubes sound quite a bit better when you can locate them. Other 6922 tubes manufactured by Amperex, Telefunken, and Mullard are even more euphoric and are certainly acceptable to the manufacturer, but most of the more exotic NOS tubes don't take the stress that this preamp places on them very well. So, even though it's a bit unfair, the AIM3A often gets labeled as a "tube eater."

    However, I know of at least one "tweak" that extends tube longevity in the AIM3A; it's a specific tube closely related to the 6DJ8/6922 which isn't recommended by the manufacturer, but many AI users who've discovered it swear by it. Unofficially, these tubes are awesome, but I don't want Art Ferris (AI's owner/manufacturer/designer) to have a nervous breakdown so I'll keep my comments on this subject to a minimum. [Note: Art's a real stickler about urging his customers to only use 6922 tubes, and with this one possible exception I'd probably have to agree with him.]

    Besides, I don't really want to get too specific since the tube type I'm using is getting harder and harder to find. If the tube isn't being manufactured any more the supply might dry up altogether since there are a lot of AI owners out there. ;)

    Cheers,
    Robert Cat Conrad :D
     
  13. jligon

    jligon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Peoria, IL
    If you're not sure about going with a tube preamp, therefore don't want to pay a lot of money, and are unsure of your soldering skills (as I am), you can get an idea of what tubes can do for you by looking into a Dynaco PAS-2 or PAS-3. I've owned a few of these and they are a bargain (IMO) at around the $100 price tag. Don't pay too much more than that. I know sometimes bidders can get out of control on Ebay but be patient. There's always more on there each week. If you like what you hear, you can leave it as is, tweak it to get more out of it or look into a better preamp. If you don't like what you hear, take some good pictures of it and get your money back (or more) on Ebay.

    Just my thoughts. I know I'm leary of forking out thousands of dollars for electronic equipment, especially if I haven't heard it first.
     
  14. pigmode

    pigmode Active Member

    Location:
    HNL
    Wouldn't new speakers provide a bigger payoff in the short run?
     
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