Amp help for Klipsch Forte III's

Having looked through *many* past threads on this subject, I still find myself with plenty of questions about matching an amp (particularly a tube amp) to my Klipsch Forte III's.

Many use/recommend SET amps for the Forte's. I've currently got a pair of Quicksilver SET Monos in-house for an audition. I'm comparing them to my Peachtree Decco2--a tube-hybrid that I hear as basically solid-state with maybe a touch of warmth. (I don't really hear a difference in the Decco with the tube switched in or out of the circuit.) I'm currently running the Quicksilver SETs off the preamp out from the Decco.

I'm hearing the SETs as considerably warmer/softer than the Decco. The much-discussed holography/depth of SET is in evidence, and the Quicksilvers do seem to present spatial clues more coherently. I'm enjoying that. But... I'm really missing--relative to the Decco--the dynamics and punch that are one of the best features, to me, of the Forte III's. They're lively/slightly bright speakers and the Quicksilvers mellow them out, perhaps too much for my tastes. And the bass with the Quicksilvers is, as often-reported with SETs, a little too loose/soft for me in my room.

Since I'm in an audition/return window, what do I try now or next?
--A different preamp? Maybe the deficiencies I'm describing in the Quicksilvers stem from using the Decco as the pre. I've got a couple preamps incoming: An AES (Cary) AE-3 DJH and a Decware CSP3+, both all tube. I'll also be able to audition/return these two, and perhaps I'll find that they'll bring more punch and drive to the Quicksilvers? Or perhaps they'll mellow things out even more? We'll see shortly....

--A different SET amp? Maybe the Quicksilver design is not optimum for what I'm going for and there are more lively SET amps out there? I'm curious about the Decware stuff. Many people say even the smallest 2W Decware is enough for Klipsch Heritage horns, but... If the Quicksilvers (8W p/c) feels a little underpowered to me....

--Forgo the Quicksilver/SET route altogether and try a push-pull tube amp? I've got my eyes on either a PrimaLuna Premium Integrated or Power Amp (both 35 W p/c). If I go with the PL power amp, I've got a Schiit Saga passive pre I'd run them with (assuming the Saga would be enough gain for it?) and would maybe upgrade the pre later on. Push-pull seems like it *might* split the difference between SS and SET, and give me both a bit more warmth and some drive with Forte's. Taming the slight brightness of the Forte's is one of the goals here.

--Forget tubes all together and try the Schiit Saga pre with something like a First Watt amp or the upcoming low-power Schiit Aegir. Or some other SS power amp with a bit of warmth that's a good upgrade from the Decco?

Thanks for any thoughts, and apologies for another "What should I do post?" A relative tube noob here....

Budget: ~$2000

Sources: Chromecast audio --> Schiit Bifrost Multi-Bit DAC / SL1200-GR --> 2m Bronze --> Graham Slee Era Gold V

Music preferences: mostly 60s-70s Blue Note/Columbia/Atlantic/Impulse small group jazz, with a bit of folk, 70s rock, Gillian Welch, Neil Young, Wilco, etc. etc.

 

Hello,

I understand the options dilemma when considering an upgrade path. I was on an amp upgrade path myself and started to look at monoblocks. I decided on a pair I wanted to demo and compare to my current amp. Well, I liked the sound, which wasn't really 'better' than my current amp, just different. And I liked hearing a different take on some of my better recordings, but didn't think I should make a purchase decision on 'difference'. At some point, I just couldn't make up my mind. I had a month to demo these monos, and to help make a decision, I got an idea to order some near field Rokit 5 studio monitors. The reason being that I wanted to hear something as uncolored as possible. Monitoring chain was simple, DAC into the Rokits.

Well, to keep this short, listening to the Rokits revealed a whole new perspective and made it much easier as to which amp I should go with. I ended up keeping my Mcintosh and sending back the PS Audio Monos. The PS monos are fantastic though, just not what I would want to listen to everyday. Listening to a studio near field, really brings out sound signatures of consumer gear -thus, made my decision so much easier. I've read a lot of info that classical sound engineers listen to Pass with B&W speakers in their 'final' listening tests. I feel the Rokits will help considerably when I demo the Pass x260 monos. With this last demo, I'm highly confident the studio monitors will help me make the right decision on the Pass demo.

Good luck and hope this helps.

 

I like your approach! However I think you need professional grade pro audio nearfields by ATC, Amphion, Adam, etc to do this properly. In other words, very expensive stuff. And a treated studio to listen in. The KRKs are budget monitors and they will introduce colorations into the sound as much as the hifi amplifiers you are comparing them with.

I am struck by your comment that in some cases, what is on paper an upgrade, is in reality just different. A different presentation, a different perspective, a different set of pros and cons. How often is this in fact true in our hobby!

 

Indeed, moving up is sometimes just moving sideways, into something a little different, which has its merits. In this case, I do think I can get something better than the Peachtree Decco. It's a fine amp and has served me well, but, based on my research, a solid tube amp is the way to go with Klipsch.

In any case, an audition is worth a 1000 reviews, and it's been revealing to find that I may not actually the SET presentation. Most likely, I will get a PrimaLuna Prologue Premium power amp in to compare to everything. A little convenience might be a good thing, too. The Quicksilvers have the connects in the front and back layout of many boutique tube amps, which is not as great for keeping the cables tidy. And their transformers hum quite a bit, too, though I seem to have partly defeated this by getting a Emotiva CMX-2 DC offset strip.

Ah, tubes, I'm starting to see, can be fussy, but I'm hoping they'll be worth the trouble with the Forte's.

 

I had Forte II and one of the configurations I used was a Benchmark DAC-1 into a Dennis Had (founder of Cary Audio) Inspire 5wpc EL84 single ended Class A amp. It ran as quiet as a transistor amp and sounded sweet as a nut and beautiful to look at. It was hand built and individually signed by Dennis himself in the good old USA. I think he can build to your requests. I later sold the Fortes and the Inspire and have big time sellers remorse for selling both.

 

I’m running very powerful push pull tube amps with my Cornwall’s. Tons of punch, depth. I’m very happy with the setup. You might try push pull.

 

You'll need something on the soft and warm side.

 

I must be doing it al wrong. running a yamaha A-S801 with my Forte III's. I think it sounds good. Do tubes really make that big of difference, honestly I have no experience with them.

 

Well, many Internet forums (and most dealers I've spoken to) seem to suggest tubes match well with Klipsch Heritage stuff. Thus far, I'm not having any luck with the SET Monos, but we'll see if something else tube-y clicks.

 

The tube in the older Peachtree units is often misunderstood as to it's purpose.

When Peachtree introduced its original Decco, people were listening to digital lossy music at really low bit rates, resulting in poor, harsh sounding digital music.

The tube is a buffer, which provides no voltage gain and can be taken in and out of the circuit with a button on the remote.

The only real purpose for the tube, is to smooth out music that has been recorded at lower bit rates and make it more analog sounding.

The Peachtree original Nova and iNova's were and still are nice products, I have both of them.

Based on what you are saying, I don't think that a low power SET is the right amplifier for you.

I bypass the power amp section in my iNova, which I still use as the central point of control in my system, in favor of external power amps.

I have three separate systems running off the iNova.

What you might want to think about, is to keep your Decco2 as your source selector, DAC and SS preamp w/buffer.

Get yourself a class A/B Prima Luna Prologue Four from Upscale Audio for $1,099.



This will give you more power, about 35-WPC, than the small SET's and a lot more dynamics. With their 97 dB sensitivity, your Forte III's will have more than enough power.

Like all ProLogue amplifiers, it boasts:

• Soft-start circuit Extends component and tube life by powering up the amp gently every time you turn it on.
• Tube plate fuse Protects the amplifier output stage. Other amps may need a trip to the shop if a tube fails. Not this one. Just plug in a new tube and fuse, and go.
• Adaptive AutoBias. Exclusive to PrimaLuna, this circuit monitors and adjusts bias automatically. Each power tube is monitored to stay in a peak operating range. Improved performance and better sound, with distortion reduced by 40 to 50 percent over conventional designs. No need for matched tubes. No bias adjustments. Ever. It also allows you to experiment with different power tubes. Plug in virtually any power tube. Adaptive AutoBias will automatically adjust itself! In addition to EL-34s, you can use 6550, KT88, KT90, 6L6GC, KT66, 7581, EL37, and any of their equivalents.
• Custom designed output transformers Encapsulated low hum, wide bandwidth for great bass and extended highs. Designed by Marcel Croese and one of the most prestigious transformer designers in the USA.
• Premium parts. Fully vented chassis, chassis-mounted ceramic tube sockets, Nichicon and Realcap capacitors. WBT style speaker terminals. Gold plated input jacks.
• Handmade with the finest point to point wiring, with workmanship equal to or better than any product you can buy at any price, period.
• Chassis made of finely finished heavy gauge steel, and five step automotive quality finish. Each coat hand rubbed and polished. Removable tube cage included no charge.
• Toroidal power transformer for low hum, and a front end that is dead quiet.
• Conservative design runs tubes easy for long life.

The Prologue Four and Five, have been discontinued for a more expensive Prologue Premium.

These are brand new units that are being closed out by Upscale Audio, complete with factory warranty.

The Four is a EL34 based straight power amplifier and you can run it off of the preamp section of your Decco2 and have the best of tube and SS.

This is an extremely cost effective solution that I feel that you will be pleased with.

I ran my vintage Altec Lansing A7's for close to a year this way.

This is an excellent way to get into a PrimaLuna amp without a lot of money invested.

These are nice sounding amplifier's.

 

Thanks, SandAndGlass, that's a great idea--the Prologue Four--and one I've been considering. However, I'm inclined to go with the Prologue Premium, with the notion that it might be more of a step up from the Decco's power section.

The Decco will probably get moved to a second system, but, yes, I can use it as the pre/hub for a while. Great idea.

That's interesting to hear about the purpose of the tube in the Decco. I get what you're saying, but, personally, the differences I've heard between tube/no-tube in the Decco have been very subtle. I understand that they're not to meant to make the amp sound like a tube amp, just to smooth things out a bit.

 

Hey Kuipers,

I'll have to disagree on some points regarding 'needing PRO gear'. You would actually be surprised on how studios work with very inexpensive gear. I've heard of 100$ transports. I've seen an interview with a sound engineer who commented on the budget components in his work space.

Have you worked with the Rokits? Have you heard the Rokits and compared them to expensive gear? If so, how do you know which is the one without color? I would not always trust expense with better quality. Anyway, the Rokits certainly helped me in my case.

Also, I would never do a comparison like this in a treated room and certainly never a studio. I do not listen to my music in a treated room/studio -I listen to them in my listening room- that's where my comparisons should be done. Although, I would love to put some high quality diffusers in my listening room. Perhaps that makes more sense before demoing another amp.

I'm not sure I totally understand your last comment. Is it a question (I do not see a question mark) or statement? Not sure! However, I can not say that I did not like the PS amps and I can not say that I liked them better, thus, they were simply different sounding. I'm sure others would say worse or better, to either of these two amps, in an A/B comparison.

But anyway, thanks for a reference to some other studio monitors, I'll certainly look as their specs.

But, this is all a digression from the OPs' questions/concerns and I don't wish to hijack this thread from the OP with other audio discussions.

 

Seriously, you don't need to spend more money on a more expensive PrimaLuna amplifier, the Four will do really nicely for you.

I was going to recommend some NOS RFT EL34 tubes for the PrimaLuna Prologue Four and I just remembered that I have a EL34 based Audio Note Kit amp listed in the classified's that has the NOS RFT's in it.

Check it out, it is a really nice sounding amp, really outstanding. I retired back in December and currently, all of my things are in storage. I had a dozen different tube amps and this was my nicest sounding class A/B power amp, with the NOS RFT EL34 tubes.

I already sold my Prologue Five and the Line Magnetic 511iA, which were all exceptional sounding class A/B amps.

If you like the sound of the SET but want more power and dynamics, then check our the Line Magnetic 511iA 22-Watt SET that I also have listed for sale in the classified's.

With high sensitivity speaker's like your Forte III's, the 22-Watt SET will be killer sounding.

You just don't need that much power with speaker's like the Forte's.

If you like, visit my equipment profile. Below it, I put together a system tour of the audio/visual room that I had set up before I retired, you might find it interesting, lots of new and vintage equipment.

I have vintage Klipsch and Altec Lansing, horn loaded speaker's. I decided, while the LM 518iA is truly a killer SET amp, I have a little 3.9 Watt, Decware SEP (Single Ended Pentode), that I decided to keep and use with the 100 dB sensitivity vintage Altec Lansing A7's.

I have some other tube amplifier's that I am going to be offering for sale, like a Rogue Cronus Magnum, but you don't need 100-Watts to drive Klipsch Forte III's.

As to the Peachtree, because you are not using low resolution digital files, the tube buffer in the Decco2, will not do really that much for better recorded higher resolution, digital music.

With my Nova, I liked it best with the tube out of the circuit, but with the iNova, I leave the tube in the circuit.

Since my original Peachtree days, I have added a dedicated tube preamplifier to be in the the chain, after the iNova and before the Decware Mini Torii.

Which reminds me, I have a EL34 Decware Torii Jr. that is going to need a new home soon...

 

Enjoy the music and do not be too critical. This new integrated McIntosh amp MA252 is what I would put on the plastic card.
McIntosh MA252 Integrated Amplifier

 

I've been reading that the Fiiis sound best with power. In this case a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum. Sounds (briefly) excellent across the net waves.....

 

here's a guy that had success with the yamaha as-1100.

 

I have Klipsch Quartet and a 500c (30w) that sound sweet together. I was running a C28 with a MC2505 (SS). When I put tubes into the mix things changed with very warm smooth overall sound. That PrimaLuna sounds like a sweet deal for the money and with only 35w will make your Klipsch Forte III's sound fantastic.

 

Try a McIntosh MA 5100, McIntosh MAC 1700, Sansui 4000, or Sony STR 6120. Any of the above in top condition while transistor, are not overdesigned, and sound as close to tubes in SS as you can find, and sound excellent with Klipsch Forte speakers of any generation.

 

LM211IA would be a great choice.

 

Although I haven’t heard the new Fortes, I have heard many classic Klipsch speakers. If I had a a two amp setup a 300B SET amp would be in the mix, but I couldn’t live with one as my sole amp. I always go back to EL34s and PrimaLuna is where I’m at now. Only drawback is it not being as “tubey” as vintage Dynaco, Scott, Fisher, Marantz, HK, etc. Every once in a while I pull out the Dynacos to scratch that itch. Running Cornwalls here.

I’ll go back and read the thread now.

 

Definitely interested in the Line Magnetic stuff. I listened to a couple of LM amps at In Living Stereo in NYC. I think I liked either the LM211IA or the LM218IA, but I really liked the newer model LM34IA.

The tricky thing about Line Magnetic, it seems, is finding a dealer who will let you do a home demo. Or, really, any dealer period. Living Stereo and Gig Harbor are the only ones I've found. Unless I'm missing something?

 

I'm sure curious to hear a Dynaco ST-70. There's obviously a million of them out there, but I'm a little leery of buying vintage. Once I get everything figured out equipment-wise, I mostly just like to enjoy the music, as they say, without much fuss. I'm concerned about the extra service that might come with a vintage Dynaco.

Perhaps something like the Van Alstine Ultravalve would work: Ultravalve Vacuum Tube Amplifier

Or the newly resurrected Dynaco: Dynaco ST70 (which I personally find a bit ugly)

But it's unclear whether either would let me audition at home....

 

Goldprint Audio

 

You sound like you already know what you want.

I own/use the Primaluna Prologue 4 to drive my Klipsch rp600m bookshelf speakers. For a preamp I use the line out from my Denon DRA 37 50 watt per channel receiver. System sounds verygood to me (I use the loudness button). I also own a set of Klipsch Forte 2 speakers and will soon try the Primaluna with them.

My next purchase will be the McIntosh MA252 ...always wanted a McIntosh with tone controls and the cost of $3500.00 isn't too bad.