Another Steely Dan Aja CD test thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by bob2935, Jan 19, 2006.

  1. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    If somebody sent me the whole song (instead of just one minute), then I could do that.
     
  2. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    As I said earlier, the CRC and Made In Japan discs I have are digitally IDENTICAL. The CDR of the UK disc I have is NOT digitally identical to either of these. Trust me, I've done the null tests (among other things). However the differences are very, very slight and IMHO not attributable to different mastering -- in fact, IIRC, while not digitally identical, they were in sync time-wise.
     
  3. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Andreas - I'll send you the .wav file for the whole "Peg" track.

    And THANKS! You and marcb have basically confirmed my ear test and it's cool I called it rightly that my disc is Steve's work! :thumbsup:
     
  4. But ANY difference between the UK and the Japan digital files must be attributable to something... Either the EQ or the volume must be different, and if so, wouldn't this constitute a different mastering?

    EDIT: If the difference is simply a minute change in volume, it is likely the same mastering. But how would this volume change have occurred?
     
  5. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    I wish I knew what was the cause. I can tell you that when I ran a (perfectly sync'd) null test on the CRC and Made in Japan for MCA discs there was NO sound. When I ran it against the UK disc (perfectly sync'd) there was the occasional barely audible sound. When I synced up the left channel of the CRC and MIJ discs and look at them bit for bit, they were identical. When I did the same with the UK disc, they were not (although they were remarkably similar). Frankly this shouldn't be surprising since EAC consistently shows that the CRC/MIJ discs have slightly different peak levels than the UK disc.

    Nevetheless all of the discs in question sound exactly the same to me.

    Some folks hear the differences between UD1 and UD2 MFSL discs and others don't even when they're supposedly the same, so maybe it something along those lines. But I'm of the opinion that the CRC, MIJ and are all the same mastering -- be it Steve's or Roger's.
     
  6. DrJ

    DrJ Senior Member

    Location:
    Davis, CA, USA
    Sure sounds like it...if these were differently EQ'd versions you'd expect more than a rare, barely audible blip here and there during the sync test, for sure.
     
  7. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    What song did you test?

    My null tests (see my previous posts) confirmed digital identity, not even the slightest differences. But I have not tested every song, and no complete songs.

    Of course, you have to take care of different leading silences. The track lengths are different.
     
  8. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Sorry, busy week, so I haven't been able to get all of my findings together. I ran the tests a little while back so I've been going by memory. I tested Peg, I believe.

    Yes, the silences are different and I made sure to sync them up exactly.

    In fact, I made a slight misstatement when I said earlier that the CRC and MIJ discs are digitally identical. Only the music is digitally identical. They have different length gaps between songs and the CRC has digital silence between songs whereas the MIJ has no digital silence or fade betwen songs.
     
  9. DTB

    DTB Active Member

    Is the "Aja" that's listed on Amazon Canada, with a release date of (1/1/90),
    the Roger Nichols' version. I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere but I
    couldn't seem to find a definite answer.
    Thanks,
    DB
     
  10. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    :agree: Yes it is.
     
  11. DTB

    DTB Active Member

    Thanks Dave. :thumbsup:
     
  12. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I would really welcome to listen to a sample from the Nichols mastering.

    So far, every posted sample was either from Steve's mastering or the "other" mastering with its boosted top end on the US JVC disc.
     
  13. poweragemk

    poweragemk Old Member

    Location:
    CH
    I'm also (still) interested. EAC data, too.
     
  14. jackieboy

    jackieboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia Pa.
    Can EAC levels determine SH or Nichols version for sure?

    I would gladly post a sample of the nichols if I knew I had it. I have 3 early copies of this CD. 2 I think are the same but they have different matrix numbers.(Made in Japan) The third is BMG club verision 1984 (Made in USA)which has differnt EAC peak levels than the other 2.

    How much help are these EAC peak levels in identifing the differnt versions? Below are the EAC reports. I edited them to add the matrix #'s etc. into the reports. The Japan CD's sound great. But I wish I new if there was a third mastering out there. Any ideas if which of these are SH or Nichols? sorry to beat this dead horse but it's clear as mud to me after reading all these pages.


    Didx 55 mcad-37214 made in japan for MCA
    matrix:MCAD 37214 M2e14:



    EAC extraction logfile from 17. May 2006, 18:08 for CD
    Steely Dan / Aja

    1984 CD

    Didx 55 mcad-37214 made in japan for MCA
    matrix:MCAD 37214 M2e14

    Used drive : _NEC DVD_RW ND-3500AG Adapter: 0 ID: 0
    Read mode : Secure with C2, accurate stream, NO disable cache
    Read offset correction : 0
    Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

    Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
    44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

    Other options :
    Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
    Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
    Installed external ASPI interface


    Track 1
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(01)_Black_Cow.wav

    Peak level 90.8 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 0519A71E
    Copy OK

    Track 2
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(02)_Aja.wav

    Peak level 91.7 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC F84D8A37
    Copy OK

    Track 3
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(03)_Deacon_Blues.wav

    Peak level 90.6 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 7534403F
    Copy OK

    Track 4
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(04)_Peg.wav

    Peak level 88.7 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 3F03EA87
    Copy OK

    Track 5
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(05)_Home_At_Last.wav

    Peak level 96.3 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC F545672B
    Copy OK

    Track 6
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(06)_I_Got_The_News.wav

    Peak level 86.2 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 8BB8DF1E
    Copy OK

    Track 7
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (Original Japan Smooth Side Case)\(07)_Josie.wav

    Peak level 97.6 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC A3C5B655
    Copy OK

    No errors occured


    End of status report


    Didy 55 mcad-37214 made in japan for MCA
    matrix:MCAD 37214 T6E13:




    EAC extraction logfile from 21. April 2006, 17:53 for CD
    Steely Dan / Aja

    1984 CD

    Didy 55 mcad-37214 made in japan for MCA
    matrix:MCAD 37214 T6E13

    Used drive : _NEC DVD_RW ND-3500AG Adapter: 0 ID: 0
    Read mode : Secure with C2, accurate stream, NO disable cache
    Read offset correction : 0
    Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

    Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
    44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

    Other options :
    Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
    Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
    Installed external ASPI interface


    Track 1
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(01)_Black_Cow.wav

    Peak level 90.8 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 9CF26FEF
    Copy OK

    Track 2
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(02)_Aja.wav

    Peak level 91.7 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 32F2B1E1
    Copy OK

    Track 3
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(03)_Deacon_Blues.wav

    Peak level 90.6 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 9697A14E
    Copy OK

    Track 4
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(04)_Peg.wav

    Peak level 88.7 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 53D4914A
    Copy OK

    Track 5
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(05)_Home_At_Last.wav

    Peak level 96.3 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 798E062D
    Copy OK

    Track 6
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(06)_I_Got_The_News.wav

    Peak level 86.2 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 5B7D886B
    Copy OK

    Track 7
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Seventies Torrents\Steely Dan\Aja CD\(07)_Josie.wav

    Peak level 97.6 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 4C5643CD
    Copy OK

    No errors occured


    End of status report


    D100409 Mfg. for BMG Direct Marketing, Inc. under License Made In the U.S.A.
    Matrix: MCAD-37214-1 14 (14 is stamped in the disc)MFD by JVC:





    EAC extraction logfile from 17. May 2006, 18:21 for CD
    Steely Dan / Aja

    1984 CD

    D100409 Mfg. for BMG Direct Marketing, Inc. under License Made In the U.S.A.
    Matrix: MCAD-37214-1 14 (14 is stamped in the disc)MFD by JVC

    Used drive : _NEC DVD_RW ND-3500AG Adapter: 0 ID: 0
    Read mode : Secure with C2, accurate stream, NO disable cache
    Read offset correction : 0
    Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

    Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
    44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

    Other options :
    Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
    Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
    Installed external ASPI interface


    Track 1
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(01)_Black_Cow.wav

    Peak level 81.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC ABF88890
    Copy OK

    Track 2
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(02)_Aja.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC F359638D
    Copy OK

    Track 3
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(03)_Deacon_Blues.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 99.9 %
    Copy CRC 172B7FE5
    Copy OK

    Track 4
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(04)_Peg.wav

    Peak level 97.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 0ADD5E81
    Copy OK

    Track 5
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(05)_Home_At_Last.wav

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC E3C9A2CB
    Copy OK

    Track 6
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(06)_I_Got_The_News.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 77723569
    Copy OK

    Track 7
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(07)_Josie.wav

    Peak level 90.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 50676F68
    Copy OK

    No errors occured


    End of status report
     
  15. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    jackieboy,

    the first two discs in your posts have the standard EAC values of those MCAD 37214 US or Japanese CDs that are made from Steve's mastering (with minimal differences to the UK version).
    The third disc has the standard EAC values for MCAD 37214 US CDs manufactured by JVC, which is a totally different mastering and certainly does not sound like a flat transfer.

    Nichols' version has not been identified in terms of EAC levels.
     
  16. jackieboy

    jackieboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philadelphia Pa.
    Thanks Andreas

    I reread the 2 monster threads on SH Aja. Yes there seems to be too many SH Disc and not enough Nichols disc reported.

    there are only supposed to be 2 masterings from the 80's. if this is true the jacked up eq one would have to be Nichols. therefore Sh would have to have remembered incorrectly about the Nichols being a flat transfer.If this is true it seems the SH was used for way more than a 5k run with 4k of those probably destroyed.The Japan sounds great.This could be the case. But then another mistake would have to have been made when Dave was told his Disc was not SH.

    another scenario, The Japan Disc is the Nichols and the SH Disc were all destroyed?Which would leave the question who did the jacked up EQ one (the grassy knoll version)? About all we know about that one is it was 100% not SH's.

    If someone asked SH if he was really sure the disc Mal played for him was his. If he answered yes 100% then scenario 1 or something close to it must have happened.If he answered: well we had a few brews and Mal would'nt stop talking so it was hard to hear, mayby I better have another listen :p , then mayby something close to scenario 2 happened?

    Anyway I think it's a good mystery which is why I am interested. Because the japan disc sounds so good it matters not who mastered it. :righton:
     
  17. hatfield

    hatfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wilton, CT, USA
    Maybe I'm mistaken, but Dave may be wrong when he says the Canadian Aja disc is Roger's mastering. The Canadian copy I just bought sealed is listed as MCA Records MCABD 37214 DIDX 55. It says it was previously released as MCAMD 37214. Disc manufactured by Cinram for MCA Canada. It has the same exact EAC peak values as the disc listed by Jackieboy.

    First is Jackieboy's EAC findings for his D100409 Mfg. for BMG Direct Marketing, Inc. under License Made In the U.S.A. Matrix: MCAD-37214-1 14 (14 is stamped in the disc)MFD by JVC:

    EAC extraction logfile from 17. May 2006, 18:21 for CD
    Steely Dan / Aja

    1984 CD

    D100409 Mfg. for BMG Direct Marketing, Inc. under License Made In the U.S.A.
    Matrix: MCAD-37214-1 14 (14 is stamped in the disc)MFD by JVC

    Used drive : _NEC DVD_RW ND-3500AG Adapter: 0 ID: 0
    Read mode : Secure with C2, accurate stream, NO disable cache
    Read offset correction : 0
    Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

    Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
    44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

    Other options :
    Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
    Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
    Installed external ASPI interface


    Track 1
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(01)_Black_Cow.wav

    Peak level 81.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC ABF88890
    Copy OK

    Track 2
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(02)_Aja.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC F359638D
    Copy OK

    Track 3
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(03)_Deacon_Blues.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 99.9 %
    Copy CRC 172B7FE5
    Copy OK

    Track 4
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(04)_Peg.wav

    Peak level 97.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 0ADD5E81
    Copy OK

    Track 5
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(05)_Home_At_Last.wav

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC E3C9A2CB
    Copy OK

    Track 6
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(06)_I_Got_The_News.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 77723569
    Copy OK

    Track 7
    Filename F:\1970's Rock\Steely Dan\Aja (1984 BMG USA)\(07)_Josie.wav

    Peak level 90.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Copy CRC 50676F68
    Copy OK

    No errors occured


    End of status report

    Next are the results of my Canadian MCABD 37214

    EAC extraction logfile from 28. July 2006, 1:46 for CD
    Steely Dan / Aja

    Used drive : _NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A Adapter: 1 ID: 0
    Read mode : Secure with NO C2, accurate stream, disable cache
    Read offset correction : 48
    Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

    Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
    44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo

    Other options :
    Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
    Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
    Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000


    Track 1
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\01 - Black Cow.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:02.00

    Peak level 81.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Test CRC 8A67C6FE
    Copy CRC 8A67C6FE
    Copy OK

    Track 2
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\02 - Aja.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:01.80

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Test CRC 0600BD48
    Copy CRC 0600BD48
    Copy OK

    Track 3
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\03 - Deacon Blues.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:03.73

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Test CRC 8E12F86B
    Copy CRC 8E12F86B
    Copy OK

    Track 4
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\04 - Peg.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:03.20

    Peak level 97.4 %
    Track quality 99.9 %
    Test CRC B9EEE5CB
    Copy CRC B9EEE5CB
    Copy OK

    Track 5
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\05 - Home At Last.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:02.57

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Test CRC 9396BC97
    Copy CRC 9396BC97
    Copy OK

    Track 6
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\06 - I Got The News.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:03.46

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Test CRC DBB3AF92
    Copy CRC DBB3AF92
    Copy OK

    Track 7
    Filename C:\Steely Dan - Aja - Canada\07 - Josie.wav

    Pre-gap length 0:00:03.22

    Peak level 90.4 %
    Track quality 100.0 %
    Test CRC FA509AFB
    Copy CRC FA509AFB
    Copy OK

    No errors occured


    End of status report


    Based on this, I would think that neither of these are Roger's mastering and I'm certain they are not Steve's. If I remember correctly, Dave thought the Roger mastering may be the one where the EAC peak values were off by a tenth of a value on a couple of tracks, when comparing it to the confirmed England press. Didn't someone take a copy where the EAC is off by a tenth and run it through a software program that showed it to be identical to the confirmed Steve disc, except for the unexplained tenth?
     
  18. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Yes, that would have been me, but I have already reported that I was wrong. Somehow.

    The two different versions (namely the US disc and my BMG German disc) were almost identical. When inverted and combined, the remainder was invisible and showed a flat line, but when boosted, there was some extremely low-level musical content. In other words, not exactly digitally identical, but so close that they are most likely from the same mastering, and definitely from the same digital transfer (since they stayed in-synch).

    I have no idea what exactly happened to produce that effect. Similar things happened to different pressings of Meaty Beaty Big & Bouncy or the Virgin/Charisma Foxtrot CD.
     
  19. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    I've seen something similar between different Donald Fagen "Nightly" pressings - the only explanation I could think of was that maybe dither was added to one version.
     
  20. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    These are definitely different masterings. Even though computer programs are showing only slight differences between Roger and Steve's masterings they sound completely different to me and the difference was immediately noticed ie: night and day.
     
  21. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    The two I was talking about sounded absolutely identical to me.
     
  22. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Are we talking about these from their CD source or WAV files? The way I see this whole affair is that we have absolute confirmation on Steve's mastering on the UK MCLD 19145 pressings that Mal and I and a few others own from Steve himself. The only other speculated confirmation comes from a computer program based on its own limited parameters. Yes or did I miss something?
     
  23. jojopuppyfish

    jojopuppyfish Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    How can you identify the Nichols version?
     
  24. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Dave - if the computer reading the data on two discs comes up with the exact same sample values on both discs then they are the same. There are no "limited parameters" coming into play here.

    Given your self-proclaimed limited technological knowledge on the subject - you really have to trust us on this one and accept that two discs proven to be clones by using a computer to check the data are genuinely EXACT clones. Instead, in the lack of much knowledge about it, you seem to have decided that such findings are suspect despite everyone with detailed knowledge of how CD-ROM drives and ripping software work telling you the opposite is true.

    Now, as has been discussed numerous times - two discs containing identical data can still sound different - but that is down to the playback equipment's particular response to the different physical properties of the two discs.

    So there you have it - now, let's talk about what the cast iron findings of Andreas and others mean in terms of locating the best sounding aja CDs......

    :)
     
  25. bru87tr

    bru87tr 80’s rule

    Location:
    MA
    dont shoot me. :)

    boy, between the differences of opinions and what is and what is not its hard to determine who is right and what to use for a reference to tell which are steves mastering. my head spins everytime I read this thread.

    I finally got my hands on a Japan for US copy of Aja. maybe someone can tell what I have ?

    total time by EAC is 39.57.07

    Made in Japan with DIDX-55 21A1 in the matrix. all artwork and on the disc says MCAD-37214 DIDX-55 and inner clear HUB is marked CSR.

    peak levels in EAC are.....

    Track #1: 90.8

    #2: 91.7

    #3: 90.6

    #4: 88.7

    #5: 96.3

    #6: 86.2

    #7: 97.6
     

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