Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MBERGHAU, May 14, 2008.
Because he wanted Roth dead. Michael killed two birds with one stone.
So you send a guy who betrayed you, in the pay of Roth, to go kill Roth, and assume he will follow through? That makes as much sense as sending Tessio to kill Barzini.
There was an incentive- his family gets taken care of. Same as Frankie. Michael has leverage.
The alternative is Fredo has morphed from village idiot to a combination of James Bond and a Navy Seal in a matter of hours.
True, but Tessio would have had Barzini killed in a heartbeat, if he thought it would save his own neck.
The hit at the compound is indeed a mystery. I'm not averse to the idea that Rocco was involved. It's no coincidence that he was head of security. It's just odd that the movie never addresses it either way. Rocco's assassination of Roth does seem suicidal. Did he really hope he could just run away? When the cops call out to him, he stops and turns, see below at 3:24 in:
He stops and turns because either he realizes he is caught and can surrender peacefully (which is silly, because he could have done that immediately after shooting Roth), or, he is intentionally going out like Pentangeli. And then it's no coincidence that Rocco's shooting immediately cuts to Pentangeli in the bathtub, possibly an intentional association.
Fredo could have opened the drapes, though there's nothing to suggest he did except by process of elimination, but he couldn't have killed the shooters, and we never really see Fredo ordering guys around either.
So I don't rule out Rocco but it is pretty strange that such a subtle subplot could be completely undeclared in the narrative. I suppose general audiences don't notice it, because overall we view the film through Michael's perspective, and he doesn't know everything, and sometimes we don't even know what he knows or is thinking. So I think Godfather audiences generally let this stuff go.
An interesting note though is that I saw a trivia note on IMDB (for what it's worth), that an early draft of the third film included Rocco, having survived his shooting. He does take at least two bullets to the side at the end of the second film, but I suppose he could have survived. There is no detail I could find on his possible role in the third film, i.e. is he still in prison for shooting Roth?
So I don't rule out Rocco but it is pretty strange that such a subtle subplot could be completely undeclared in the narrative.
Agreed. Not sure if that is intentional or FFC wanted us to think. Both films are often very subtle in the points they make. Still there are possible clues that it was Rocco.
Either Rocco, Neri, or Fredo.
Or an outside chance that Frankie and Cicci smuggled some guys into the party and signaled them after Michael refuses to wack the Rosato Brothers. Cicci, staying sober as opposed to Frankie, waits in the woods and nails them. And then managed to evade the entire compound crew and their dogs.
I haven't read all 19 pages of this thread, but I wanted to add why I'm a fan of "The Godfather" and that is thanks to this film, Francis Ford Coppola got the money to get into the wine business, which he has pretty successfully produced, in both great properties and in fine tasting vino!
My father was born in Italy and he and his family moved to America when he was 7 years old, back in the 1920's. He didn't speak a word of English when he arrived, but he went to school and learned. Many, many jobs and education through the years from being a bartender at the family bar that they started to becoming a successful attorney, who was a part of the law firm who beat JEEP, in one of their early cases regarding their "roll bars" and how they killed passengers. I bring that up, not to brag, although I'm still very proud of what my own father accomplished during his time on earth, but instead because I can't really watch The Godfather movies, the same way that many of you do, as I know that my own family were never of that Italian drama! My family, well rather my "extended" family (aunts, uncles and cousins), they were the ones who would kill, but for reasons like making the "gravy" incorrectly or overcooking the pasta, LOL.
I think that the ambiguity in GF2, whether intended or not, is part of what allows the film to stand up to so much repeated viewing. Rewatching Roth's shooting, Rocco definitely comes nowhere near the Clemenza Rule ("two shots in the head"). The shooting even looks survivable.
It has always reminded me of Ruby nailing Oswald.
I thought he came back to Kay after his return to America because they were serious about each other – recall that Michael insists that Kay be part of the family photograph at the wedding – and were heading for marriage when he had to leave the country, even if they were not actually engaged (they were already sleeping together, a big deal for a nice girl like Kay in those days). Michael isn’t one to play the field -- in the novel we're told he has no sexual contacts, even casual ones, between the death of Apollonia and his return to Kay. It would make sense for him to go back to Kay. He left her because he had to, not because he wanted to, even if he didn't feel the passion for her that he did for Apollonia. The fact that Kay is not Italian is one of the things that serves to differentiate Michael from his family when we first see him and it may well have been part of her attraction for him, but I see no evidence to suggest that his interest in her was cynical or status-driven.
At the end of the book it’s clear that Kay knows the score (Mass every day) and that she’s adjusting to Mafia wife life reasonably well. The collapse of the marriage in Godfather II is not handled well IMO, with some poor writing and oddly shaped scenes, and it doesn’t help that Diane Keaton at that stage in her career was not up to the demands of the role.
Interesting points but I must disagree. Rewatching his reunion scene with Kay, it feels like he acts nearly the same with her as he does with Tom Hagen. He's been back over a year and he never contacted her, gives no explanation to her for that. He doesn't ask her anything at all. He gestures for his car to come over and pick them up, he never asks her how she feels or what she wants. He does tell her he loves her, but he also says he needs her and immediately mentions having children together. To me, his return to Kay is as cold as the expression on his face in the whole scene. It's just "good business" to him.
I'd like to re-read that part of the book though, now that mentioned it, to see if there's insight I'm missing from the film.
There are several alternative scenarios besides "Fredo is a mastermind".
I think the most likely scenario is that Fredo opened the curtains and did nothing else. Roth figured out how to sneak the assassins onto the compound, and Roth hired someone else to kill the assassins.
(Personally, I think those dead bodies might have just been pre-killed bodies designed to fool Michael into thinking that the hit was put out by "New York men".)
He did episodes of Kojak, Medical Center, Ellery Queen, Serpico, Starsky And Hutch, Barnaby Jones, Baretta, Future Cop, Columbo, Vega$, Magnum P.I., The Fall Guy, and Cagney & Lacey (in terms of cop shows).
Well ... one can certainly imagine that and it is within the realm of possibility. And I would say Rocco was the one who got them in and then offed them. The clues are vague and scant, but what there is points to him.
I disagree. I think Fredo's role was what you ascribe to Roth (figuring out how to sneak people onto the compound, e.g., through the boat house) rather than opening the curtains. Fredo seems emphatic that he didn't know it would be a hit, and let's face it: even a complete idiot would have known that the sole purpose of opening curtains like that would be so a hitman outside could shoot at Michael inside. Fredo had access to the boat house and he was just dumb enough to be convinced the assassins were there for some other reason. The details of how Fredo provided access through the boat house or how the curtains were left open were not important. Rocco didn't need to be involved. As head of security, his failure was in allowing this thing to happen. Even though he wasn't in on it, he had to take responsibility for it. Seemed like he wanted to, out of a sense of loyalty and honor.
I’ve always liked Roth’s birthday cake, w the map of Cuba on it. Roth cutting the first slice out of it is great.
I love the multiple meanings to Roth's two words to the waiter - "smaller piece".
1 - Even when it comes to a cake of Cuba, he is willing to feign wanting a smaller piece.
2 - He likes to micromanage and control anything he can, and he can't stop himself from doing so.
Never caught the “smaller piece” business!
3 - He has coronary artery disease and his doctor told him to lay off foods laden with fat and sugar.
It's one of the most normal things at birthday parties to ask for a smaller piece of cake. It happens at every birthday party I attend, but the double entendre here and the way Roth asks for the smaller piece and for the cake to be shown to all the guests is still quite amusing.
By the way, another major reason it was so important to assassinate Roth: he was being taken into custody and could have divulged much to the authorities about Michael's illegal activities to the point where it was too much of a liability to let him live.
You humbled me by so succinctly deflating my false insight. Yup.
I wonder if anyone asked Michael Corleone to fill in his equipment profile.
You mean the system he has in his home? IN HIS HOME?
Where his children come and play w their records.
"Fredo, you're my older brother and I love you. But don't ever touch my stereo again. Ever."
Also, side 1 of Led Zeppelin IV was supposed to be playing on the bar jukebox.
"I'm german irish"
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