Any Serious Godfather fans out there?

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MBERGHAU, May 14, 2008.

  1. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    I think you are probably right, I was just trying to rationalise it to myself that maybe they knew a cop would be passing by and interrupting. Ultimately I suppose not everything has to be clearly explained in the film, some things can be left for the audience to mull over and discuss. There is nothing worse than too much exposition and by the numbers film making IMHO. Always better to leave some points vague so people like us can discuss!!
     
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  2. JozefK

    JozefK Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dixie
    This never occurred to me at all
     
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  3. Pines Brook

    Pines Brook That sums up Squatter for me

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Yeah. The silent expression on the brother's face when he looks at Frank is not one of "help, these guys are going to kill me", it's more "what the heck are you doing, testifying against one of our own?" Michael and Tom seem to treat the brother with great respect in the scene. Also, Michael wouldn't be foolish enough to make an obvious and open (if unspoken) threat against the brother like that, literally in front of the world.
     
  4. Saint Johnny

    Saint Johnny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Asbury Park
    Yes, this. Frankie's brother is a tangible symbol of the lager whole, and what Frankies part in that whole is.
    Frankie even admits to as much to Tom before they both start talking about Roman legions. And the never explicit hint at suicide, as a way to regain lost 'honor'.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 4:16 PM
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  5. Saint Johnny

    Saint Johnny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Asbury Park
    "It was between the brothers, Kay. I had nothing to do with it."
     
  6. Jack Lord

    Jack Lord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Clemenza was great, but Frankie was a pretty good replacement. His drunken, racist diatribe in Michael's office, half in English, half in Italian,, and replete with the obligatory dramatic hand gestures, was a classic scene.

    And too much wine or not, the old man was right.
     
  7. Paulette

    Paulette Takin' a Sab-Bath

    Location:
    US
    Oh my goodness guys. So good to be back.
    Just got outta hospital and I'll be back tomorrowor the next day.

    Peace
    P
     
  8. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Fort worth tx
    The young Peter Clemenza played by the late great Bruno Kirby.
     
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  9. roblog

    roblog Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Morris Plains, NJ
    Great thread - good to see so many Italians in one forum. Should be illegal.
     
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  10. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    So my original impression was correct. I like it better this way.
     
  11. Paulette

    Paulette Takin' a Sab-Bath

    Location:
    US
  12. Fastnbulbous

    Fastnbulbous Doubleplus Ungood

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    That was a good break. A nice deal.
     
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  13. Saint Johnny

    Saint Johnny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Asbury Park
    Hahaha For which party?
    Frankie, (hmm not so much), or for Michael or the Mob as a whole?
     
  14. Fastnbulbous

    Fastnbulbous Doubleplus Ungood

    Location:
    Washington DC USA
    Its what Hagen tells Frankie about taking care of families of those who suicided.
     
  15. Saint Johnny

    Saint Johnny Forum Resident

    Location:
    Asbury Park
    It was merely the least terrible of all Frankie's other terrible options. And to paraphrase Solozzo, "What guarantees can Tom give you" . That once Frankie's no longer a threat (IE dead), Michael will honor the deal that Tom proposed.
    These obviously are not the most 'honorable' people to be making life and death deals with.
     
  16. Phil147

    Phil147 Forum Resident

    Location:
    York UK
    Yes, Frankie was in the ultimate 'no win scenario' and unlike Captain Kirk he didn't have a computer he could reprogram... so take your own life and we will look after your family for you. It also sends out a message to any other would be traitors that it isn't likely to end well for you. I suppose this must have been before the witness protection program?
     
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  17. Jack Lord

    Jack Lord Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC

    True enough. But considering that Michael himself was largely to blame for the debacle by not listening to Frankie in the first place, he should at least let the widow stay in the old house and provide a pension of sorts.
     
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  18. Dhreview16

    Dhreview16 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London UK
    Godfather fans ? I would guess there’s at least 1, 2 or 3....
     
  19. Charlie DJ

    Charlie DJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Tx USA
    Aiello says in the clip it he said it during rehearsals. So maybe they weren't filming yet and he didn't drag Gazzo down the bar. Is it possible this was really just a serendipitous moment and Aiello inadvertently "saved" the last 3rd of the movie by providing the motive?
     
  20. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    If so, this scene was written to accommodate the change:

    CUT TO: The compound TOM is leaning against a brick wall.

    MICHAEL

    Alive -- PENTANGELI is alive. How'd they get their hands on him?

    TOM

    ROTH. He engineered it MICHAEL. Frankie went to make a deal with the Rosato Brothers -- and they tried to kill him. Our people with the New York detectives said he was half dead, scared stiff, and calling out loud that you'd turned on him.
     
  21. Pines Brook

    Pines Brook That sums up Squatter for me

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Yeah, I just re-watched the clip and I was wrong, he says it came up in rehearsals. I guess I got confused because in Aiello's words, Coppola was still saying "action" and "cut" during rehearsals, apparently...

    The more I think about this, the more I think it is a plot hole of some kind. I have a suspicion or a guess that Coppola wanted to lay this twist on the audience, because I think when people first see that Rosato/Pentangeli scene, unless I'm mistaken, the audience is also fooled at that time, thinking maybe Michael did sanction the hit, which then failed. And that adds tension and some healthy confusion, because the movie is set up to make you think Roth is probably the real bad guy. But Coppola pays the price for surprising the audience later, with the revelation that Roth ordered the hit without Michael's approval, with a mildly contrived sequence of events that may not make total sense.
     
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  22. GregM

    GregM Senior Member

    Location:
    Daddyland, CA
    Wha? Michael and Roth were sitting in the same room together when they both agreed that Pentangeli was small potatoes and they both approved his death. Michael told Roth it was Pentangeli who was the traitor. So Michael really did give Roth that sanction at that time, and it was perfectly accurate for Aiello to say what he did.
    Michael was trying to play both sides to find out the real traitor in his family and to pursue a deal that could set him up to go legit--something he had long desired. The sad truth is that he was willing to sacrifice Pentangeli. Roth knew it, the Rosato brothers knew it, Pentangeli himself knew it (that's why the FBI guys were almost able to flip him), and the audience should have known it, too.
     
  23. Pines Brook

    Pines Brook That sums up Squatter for me

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Yes, Michael told Roth that Pentangeli was behind his failed hit, and that the latter was a "dead man." I think Michael is indeed playing Roth at that time, that he doesn't believe what he says. He implies that he will take care of Pentangeli. But then he goes to Pentangeli and says the opposite more or less, that Roth was behind the hit. I've always believed Michael is being honest in the latter case, and lying in the former. As you said, he could and probably is playing both sides. But while he says that "Pentangeli is a dead man", he never orders the hit. That's why later, he confronts Roth very coldly and asks outright, "who had Pentangeli killed?" Lee Strasberg does a fantastic job at being a bad liar, when he has Roth say "the Rosato Brothers." Michael replies, "I know, but who gave the go-ahead? I know I didn't." He did not give sanction for anyone else to act. And then a gradually furious Roth loses his cool and more or less admits that he did it, and brings up Moe Greene.

    I think you are right that Michael might be playing both sides, to see who missteps first. But it's clear from the later scene that Michael did not approve the hit. He said he would take care of Pentangeli, but he didn't take any action, which is why he confronts Roth about it. I agree that Michael was likely willing to sacrifice Pentangeli, but I think he actually trusted Pentangeli more and wouldn't have directly ordered his death. I guess I'm in the middle somewhere here. But the detail of Rosato taunting Pentangeli with "Michael Corleone says hello!" feels like an intentional misdirection by Rosato when we find out that Michael not only did not request or plan that event, in fact, later he seems upset that it happened. Again, does he really care about anyone or anything more than he cares about the Havana deal? Probably not. I've got to watch this great movie again. It definitely seems to be more open to interpretation that the first film, a film I must say I view as just slightly superior in its construction and details, even though it's lacking De Niro's great work.
     
  24. GregM

    GregM Senior Member

    Location:
    Daddyland, CA
    No question, he's playing both sides but needs to sacrifice Pentangeli just on the off-chance that he can actually make a deal with Roth. You sound like one of Michael's attorneys when you say he never ordered the hit. He most definitely gave Roth the go-ahead.


    It's not misdirection at all, and it doesn't feel like that. It feels like Rosato, a mortal enemy of Pentangeli, trying to twist the knife in as he strangles him by saying something that will he knows will be the ultimate hurt and betrayal.

    I don't think it's open to interpretation at all. The story is very clear and well told.
     
  25. Pines Brook

    Pines Brook That sums up Squatter for me

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I really don't want to get into an argument with a stranger over a movie, but I think you need to re-watch this scene and reconsider your words, if you think Michael "most definitely gave Roth the go-ahead." In this pivotal scene, Michael literally tells Roth that he did not give the go-ahead! And there is no evidence at all that Michael did anything to order a hit. All he did was mention the idea to Roth earlier in the film, while saying he would take care of it.

     

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